I was emptying some boxes and ran across a transcription of an old Alvin Dyer talk; I think someone gave it to me on my mission.

The talk is titled "For What Purpose" and was given by Dyer at a missionary conference in Oslo. It's quite long (7 pages, legal size, single-spaced). I don't recall seeing it anywhere else, and am not sure if it's ever been published.

It's all nonsense, it talks a lot about lineages and valiant spirits in the pre-existence and what used to be "deep doctrine" which we don't teach anymore. There's nothing that hasn't already been discussed on this board however. No real surprises.

Has anyone else heard of this talk? Do I have the only known copy left? And if so, should I do something to memorialize the talk so it's not forgotten forever?

Yes, I am familiar with this. This speech was given on March 18, 1961 in Oslo. It's actually a pretty well quoted talk, and has been reprinted in it's entirety starting on page 48 of the book "The Negro in Mormon Theology" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner.

Dyer was an interesting guy. Unlike Paul H. Dunn, he actually WAS an outstanding baseball player, and turned down a pro offer because of Sunday play. Also, I think he is the only Mormon in history to be ordained to the office of SEVENTY after having been ordained an Apostle, iirc.

Alvin Dark took his place in the major leagues, and had a great career. Everything happens for a purpose.

I read that talk, but I don't think I have it any more. One statement I remember is that the Celestial Kingdom is the kingdom of administration, ruling the other kingdoms. It seems like something a general authority would say, glorifying his own function above everything else, like virtue or wisdom.

From "On This Day in Mormon History:"

Mar 18, 1961 - Assistant to the Twelve and future member of First Presidency Alvin R. Dyer addresses a missionary conference in Oslo, Norway. His talk, "For What Purpose" is copied and distributed to missionaries and passed around for years to come: "what I say is not to be given to your investigators by any matter of means.... Why is it that you are white and not colored? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Who had anything to do with your being born into the Church and not born a Chinese or a Hindu, or a Negro? Is God such an unjust person that He would make you white and free and make a Negro cursed under the cursing of Cain that he should not hold the Priesthood of God?...I want to talk to you just briefly about this, not with any information that you would convey to your investigators, but that you, yourselves, may have a better understanding of what we are doing in the mission field today... There were three divisions of mankind in the pre-existence, and when you are born into this life, you are born into one of these three divisions of people. There is an imposed judgment placed upon everyone who leaves the Spirit World just the same as there will be when they leave this life and go into one of three places. When they left the Spirit World, they had already been judged by what they had done in the Spirit World and in their previous life. From what judgment is determined how they shall be born in this life? When you understand that, you know that God is not unjust to cause a righteous spirit to be born as a cursed member of the black race or to be cursed as one of the other people who have been cursed. Everything is in order. The procreation of man is orderly and in accordance with the plan of life and salvation. “In keeping with this thought, when Noah went into the Ark, here again he took with him his three sons—one representing the cursed lineage.... Those who have been cursed in the pre-existence were born through this lineage of Ham. “I suppose, and you may have often heard missionaries say it or have asked the question: Why is a Negro a Negro? And, you have heard this answer. 'Well, they must have been neutral in the pre-existence or they must have straddled the fence. That is the most common saying—they were neither hot nor cold, so the Lord made them Negroes. This, of course, is not true. The reason that spirits are born into Negro bodies is because those spirits rejected the Priesthood of God in the pre-existence. This is the reason why you have Negroes upon the earth. “You will observe that when Cain was influenced by the power of Lucifer to follow him...Cain rejected the counsel of God. He rejected again the Priesthood as his forbearers had done in the pre-existence. Therefore, the curse of the pre-existence was made institute through the loins of Cain. Consequently, you have the beginning of the race of men and women into which would be born those in the pre-existence who had rejected the Priesthood of God....Ham reinstated the curse of the pre-existence when he rejected the Priesthood of Noah, and in consequence of that he preserved the curse on the earth. Therefore, the Negroes to be born thereafter, or those who were to become Negroes, were to be born through the loins of Ham. “All of this is according to a well worked-out plan, that these millions and billions of spirits awaiting birth in the pre-existence would be born through a channel or race of people. Consequently, the cursed were to be born through Ham.... The cursed people are the descendants of Ham. The chosen people are the descendants of Shem... Through these lineages the spirits that compare with their station are born in this life. This is why you have colored people, why you have dark people and why you have white people.…May the Lord bless you in it and bless you with this knowledge. I bear record of its truthfulness in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

I hated trying to convince myself that this shit could be true and come from a servant of God. It screwed with my brain to no end.

I remember first seeing this talk in a copy that a missionary
had in the late 1960s.

He talked about how "powerful" it was, and the "deep" doctrine
it went into.

Of course this "assistant to the Twelve" and future member of
the First Presidency was teaching things that have since been
condemned by an unsigned essay on the Church's website.

Book of Morridor, I would love to get a copy of your
transcription. Can you contact me at
pay_lay_ale666(at-sign)hotmail.com?

Here is a link to the complete talk:

http://probationarystate.blogspot.com/2010/09/alvin-r-dyer-for-what-purpose.html

The comments are VERY interesting.

D'oh, I swear yours wans't posted when I started posting ;-)

Sure, I'll email you later this evening. (If not tonight, then tomorrow; my email server has been fritzing recently.)

Thanks to both of you for the link. It appears that, for whatever reason, my transcript has 3+ paragraphs that the online version is missing.

How can this organization think that simply claiming to no longer teach something, that it is not remember or forgiven?


We don't teach that anymore should be the go to line in any bishops interviews or church courts.

That's the one, all right.

Okay, thanks, that's what I wanted to know. I'm glad it's been reasonably well circulated. I don't want to be the keeper of this steaming pile of crap.

What about other races?


Asians


Pacific Islanders


Moon Quakers


Amerindians


People were (and Still Are) believing Anything Mormonism throws at them, a 'perfectly formed' POS.

...on my mission in Australia in 1974. I can't remember who gave it to me, but I believe it was my mission president, J. Martell Bird. The gist was that the talk was deep dark doctrine that was true, but too deep for investigators or even members at large to read.

Even though Dyer's speech is pretty much disavowed today, it's similar to what Brigham Young (among others) taught about the most righteous spirits being born into faithful LDS homes, and that the lighter one's skin, the more righteous your lineage, etc. Also, apostle Mark E. Petersen gave a speech in 1954 wherein he repeated some of the same themes:

"Is there any reason to think that the same principles of rewards and punishments did not apply to us and our deeds in the pre-existent world as will apply hereafter? Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life? We must accept the justice of God. He is fair to all. His is not a respector of persons. He will mete to us according to what we deserve.

"With that in mind, can we account in any other way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existance some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds.....

"Is it not a reasonable belief that the Lord would select the choice spirits to come to the better grades of nations? Is it not reasonable to believe that less worthy spirits would come through less favored lineage? Does this not account in very large part for the various grades of color and degrees of intelligence we find in the earth?"

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1340273,1340273#REPLY

and Now, it turns out it was all B.S.

I think Melvin J. Ballard gave a version of the talk too, emphasizing the idea that the three degrees of glory were represented by the degrees of obedience of pre-mortal spirits.

While teaching institute, a book was published where Robert J. Millet re-emphasized the idea that we are born into circumstances on earth that we earned in the pre mortal existence.

That stuff (levels of obedience in the pre mortal existence) was taught liberally by a lot of the institute guys I knew.

How in the hell could a pre existence woman be born black because she rejected the priesthood ? She can't hold the damn priesthood . Just ask Kate Kelly .

"I want to also mention a very difficult subject ... before you, with complete candor. It should be discussed amongst us, yet nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them -- about which we have never spoken, and never will speak. That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone ... shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said.“The Jewish people is being exterminated,” every Party member will tell you, “perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, a small matter”. And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew. And...none of them has seen it, has endured it. Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 are there or when there are 1000. And to have seen this through and -- with the exception of human weakness -- to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and instigators. We would probably be at the same stage as 16/17, if the Jews still resided in the body of the German people.

We have taken away the riches that they had, and I have given a strict order, which Obergruppenführer Pohl has carried out, we have delivered these riches to the Reich, to the State. We have taken nothing from them for ourselves. A few, who have offended against this, will be judged in accordance with an order, that I gave at the beginning: he who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man. A number of SS men have offended against this order. They are very few, and they will be dead men WITHOUT MERCY! We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who would kill us. We however do not have the right to enrich ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one watch, with anything. That we do not have. Because we don't want, at the end of all this, to get sick and die from the same bacillus that we have exterminated. I will never see it happen that even one ... bit of putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us. On the contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together. But altogether we can say: We have carried out this most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have suffered no defect within us, in our soul, or in our character."

--Heinrich Himmler

Poznań, Poland, 4 October 1943

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/HimmlerPosen.html