Any lingering belief I had in Jesus's divinity is now a pile of smouldering ashes. I downloaded a free ebook from www.forgottenbooks.org (I've gotten some really cool free books from there.) that was written a century again. It compares the Jesus myth to similar and older pagan myths.

Because I was raised Catholic, I had a basic understanding of how Catholicism adopted pagan holy days and turned them into Christian holy days. I had no idea that there were older beliefs such as the Mithra cult that were are so similar to the Christ story that it was just creepy.

I had mixed feelings as I read the first two chapters of this book. But as I turned each page, I could feel the last of my belief falling away like "scales from my eyes" as they say in the scriptures.

I felt more free and more free as I read each page. Free to think for myself. Free to act in my own conciousness out of concern and responsibility towards my fellow humans and the other life forms I share this planet with.

It was hard to walk away from JOesph Smith and his pretty stories; Jesus is the last story I walk away from, and the hardest.

I can relate.

I don't consider Jesus (real or mythical) to be my personal saviour anymore

Still it is very hard. I still talk about Jesus, I just don't believe what I use to believe.

I think the Jesus persona has valuable moral lessons for me in how to treat people. Many other figures have influenced me as well. Buddha perhaps the most.

I like the Lion King very much, that whole circle of life thing
I like Kill Bill also

but Jesus just ain't what he used to be to me

Having thrown all that junk out the window myself, I think you'll find that with those scales taken from your eyes you'll discover a few more "just-so" beliefs that you once thought were "true" will continue to fall and you'll have to keep walking away from a few other things ... I'm not saying that is a bad thing, indeed I think it is good.

Just continue to be open to the idea that some things you may still hold onto as true will probably have to be walked away from in due time ... especially now that your scales have been taken from your eyes.

I know that was pretty surprising to me as well. A lot of baggage went out the window when I finally opened it ... and I'm better for that enlightenment.

many parts of the Biblical mythos that we grew up believing as a matter of course originated in older, more established cultures than that of the ancient Hebrews. The Bible, to me at least, is a document of Hebrew assimilationism - they adopted the raw materials of neighboring dominant local cultures and made them their own. It is only through the freak happenstance of Christianity that we in the West use the Old Testament at all, and it is only through post-Enlightenment skepticism and scholarship that we understand just how heavily early Christianity was molded and influenced by Hellenistic Judaism and by other religions popular in the Roman Empire at the time.

I'm not sure that Mithraism was as similar to Christianity as some people say. I'm not terribly educated on the subject, but I haven't seen good sources for many of the claims. Which book was it?

I find that the more appealing teachings of Jesus were taught better by Buddha, and there's a lot less of the unpleasant baggage of Christian history and none of the "believe this or go to hell" business.

From what I have read, Mithraism was pretty much limited to Roman troops garrisoned on the frontiers of the empire and to a few civil servants. It did not have appreciable contact with Christianity.

You can see a process of deification of Jesus in the New Testament. The earlier material shows Jesus as human but chosen by God (the Gospel of Mark, for example). The later material presents Jesus as God (the Gospel of John, for example).

Agreed, There are a lot of books out there which make some unsubstantiated ( and that is being kind) comparisons between Jesus and pagan gods. There are similarities, but many of the so called facts are pulled right out of the authors' asses.I would check other versions of the myths before I accepted this book as the final word. There is a lot of crap out there. I don't believe Jesus was divine either, BTW

There are some similarities but Mithraism was a mystery religion and its followers did not speak about their sacred rites. Therefore we don't know a lot about it except through art and artifacts which are open to interpretation. However there is no evidence that Mithras was born of a virgin. He sprang fully grown from a rock. He did not have 12 apostles, he was not crucified or resurrected. He was born on Dec 25, but that doesn't mean anything because Christians deliberately chose Mithras birthday as the date of Christi's birth, which was lost, because too many Christians were celebrating M's birthday or the other pagan holidays at the time of the winter solstice. They never claimed to know when Jesus was born. They just decided that would be a good day and give Christians a holiday of their own

I think if there is a god and if Jesus is divine that we will be judged on how we have lived rather than what we believe. For the record, I do believe in a Deistic type of higher power and do not think Jesus was anything other than a human being.

It sure is fun to sing "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Mithras" tho' :P

The book was "Pagan and Christian Creeds" by Edward Carpenter, published 1920.

Makurosu, I've been reading up on Buddhism and agree with you that Buddha teaches many of Jesus's principals and does it better--at least more humanely without the "obey or burn" guilt trip.

I do not think I'll ever be an atheist, though I come very close. I think of myself more as an agnostic. I still pray sometimes, but when I do, it's to both a God and Goddess--because if there the Divine does exist--I can't imagine just a father god, ya know?!

More and more I substitute meditation for prayer. Seems to work--this way I commune more with my own soul than with a deity I'm not certain about. I am trusting myself more and more to find the answers to things--if there is a god and goddess, they gave me a brain to use!!!

I'm in my early 50s and am just now starting to finish growing up--if I'd stayed in the church, I'm not sure that would ever have happened.

Utah County Mom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I do not think I'll ever be an atheist, though I
> come very close. I think of myself more as an
> agnostic. I still pray sometimes, but when I do,
> it's to both a God and Goddess--because if there
> the Divine does exist--I can't imagine just a
> father god, ya know?!

Do gods have to have human characteristics?

sci fi abounds with imagined races of male/female/neuter......or male/female/neuter/hermaphrodite
by praying to a mother and father god, you could be insulting 50% of the available dieties

I just read chapter two at the sacred texts website. It seems to be the source of the usual atheist websites comparing Jesus to Mithra, only it's better written and gives a few references to investigate. Thanks for the referral.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pcc/pcc03.htm

I'm an atheist myself, but I am just wired that way. It's hard for me to believe in anything mystical without looking behind the curtain. I have doubted the existence of God since I was seven years old, and my son is the same way. I respect the better thought out religious traditions, because I think they reflect a basic need of many human beings. Buddhism appeals to me the most. My son's mother was raised with Buddhism and she takes our son to temple for Cambodian new year and other events, and I think it's great that he has that.

The greek and roman gods were much more fun. they were super heros and had their own unique super powers.

UTCty Mom, perhaps you'll enjoy Zeitgeist.

http://youtu.be/guXirzknYYE?t=8m40s



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 12:05PM by Jesus Smith.

Zeitgeist also has a lot of unsubstantiated crap in it. Take it with a large grain of salt.

Thanks. I will have to keep that in mind as I finish it.

That Zeitgeist video caused so many board wars here when it came out that any and all mention of it was banned.

I wonder how long your post will stay up!

As I remember we were asked to give it a rest for a while because it was taking up ;ots of space and we weren't getting anywhere, but the subject was nver banned.At least that is the way I remember it. It isn't that hard to check out Zeitgeist's claims. There are plenty of good mythology books out there.You can also google the names of th relevant gods and find a lot of info.

I remember seeing posts disappear whenever the word "zeitgeist" was mentioned, and even if the video was linked w/o naming it, it was deleted.

Maybe now that it has been out for a while people have calmed down about it.

I agree that it tries to pull too many disparate elements into one theme, some of which plainly never did fit but are shoehorned in to try and prove the guy's point.

I think it ws temporary, but we will see. I also remember it not so much about Zeitgeist but about whether Jesus was real. That subject comes up often although we were told once to give the subject a break it has been debated since many times. It was a while ago and I could be wrong, but that is how I remember it.

I have been where you're at! When I realized jesus wasn't who I was conditioned to believe he was, i started seeing things, people and life more clearly. I also found Buddha's teachings to be so clear and more meaty and Buddha was not a "god" just a very educated and philosophically enlightened man. I am definitely borderline atheist (I know to many that is a bad word!) but I consider myself more agnostic than anything. Life still does have purpose and meaning as an agnostic/atheist. People think they need religious dogma that has just been passed down and changed over & over again in order to have purpose & meaning in their life...but that's a simple lie.

I am thrilled for you! Plus the fact that you're in the UC makes it really cool to me as I'm from the main hub of Orem. I wish all non believing Mormons down there could get together once in awhile in person. If I had a billion dollars I'd build an ex LDS "chapel" down there (it would look similar to LDS chapels) and conduct ex mormon get togethers that didn't involve religion. Haha would be good, but headquarters or members would probably burn it down.:(

Again I'm SO happy for you! I am going to read that book. Some more great books are:
"Good Without God- What a Billion Non Religious People Do Believe" by Greg M Epstein - This book is worth the read, you'll find yourself agreeing with a lot now that your eyes have been opened!
"The End Of Christianity" - by John W. Loftus - this is well researched, referenced and just a dang good book.

I ran across this link doing some research of my own last year and thought it kinda fit here. Check out Krishna. I find the parallels fascinating.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

Congratulations on getting out. My advice, take your time to do your own research and don't let anyone push you into (or away from) a certain belief or non belief. What you choose to believe has to be yours ... you need to own it. If you don't rely on the emotion-driven "still small voice" but level headed research, you can't go wrong. Good luck on your journey!

I'm a free-thinking atheist and it took me about a decade to reach the point where I could accept it. "Atheist" was something baaaad almost like a bad word growing up. If someone is a theist, they at least have something in common with mormons; whereas an atheist is just plain crazy, anti and evil. So, I was taught. Anyway, here I am an atheist. If I ever convert to another religion, it will be with my last parting breath. You know, just in case ;) though I cannot see myself doing that now but they do say you should never say never! :)

Wow, that list is pretty telling. I stopped believing in Jesus as the Son of God a long time ago, but only in the last year or so have I learned about all of the other "sons of god" before him.

What a crock.

without really knowing anything about Jesus except the holiday stories. And we prayed in his name. There was no personal relationship.

I guess that was a good thing.

to be tortured to death to atone for other people's sins has always given me the creeps. But I can't say I ever really threw him out since he was never really in.

The atonement thing is kind of hard to swallow. Also, what Jesus taught and what the Mormon church teaches are pretty much at odds. I'm fascinated though by the change of tune I got from the born again types who told me when I was a Mormon that my religion wasn't Christian. Then after I left and stopped believing in Jesus, they told me not to throw the baby out with the bath water. (???)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 01:03PM by Makurosu.

Thanks for the reading suggestions! Will check them out. :-)

Even the music is better.

Thanks for the laugh! You are a riot Brother of Jerry!

You folks have that right to not believe in Jesus anymore. But I wouldn't want to be you if that "myth" you call Jesus, happens to be true.

What kind of loving heavenly parent ignores it's children, some of whom get locked in the basement and tortured forever because they didn't kiss it's ass enough? What kind of a god is that?

The biblical god is a major league prick, if it does exist - and I don't think there's any evidence to indicate that it does.

dclarkfan1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You folks have that right to not believe in Jesus
> anymore. But I wouldn't want to be you if that
> "myth" you call Jesus, happens to be true.

Guess what dclarkfan1, I do not believe in a god but you are welcome to. I am a good person. I don't kill, steal, or molest. I treat my fellow human beings the way I would wish to be treated and I help the poor. Bought my neighbors groceries for 6 months when they were laid off and sent the daddy to a night job in my car when he was able to find a job.

I used to handle out of fear too. Now I am at peace. As a mom, I know that a loving parent would do everything to save their children. I would go in a burning house to pull my baby out at the risk of being charred to death. Do you really believe our heavenly father would play this hide and seek game with us while expecting us to follow the mouth-blabbings of men who claim to be his speakerphone? Think about it rationally. WTF. A test? Would you test your children that way?

After realizing that there is a world full of (among others) good people and that lo and behold, they are good although they belong to very different religions and some to no religion at all, I decided that eternal salvation cannot depend on whether or not you belong to the mormon church or what you believe. A loving father would not care what brand of religion I belong to ... he would see what kind of person I am. I am not afraid and if the day comes when I am surprised to find myself standing before my maker, he will have a lot to explain.

Stop living a life in fear and start realizing your potential to be a good person without a dictator telling you what to do.

Medicine can't explain why I am still alive today. To be brutally honest, science said I should have died in October of 2008, I'm still breathing, and have my life back.

Now you can't convince me that was just some sort of cosmic accident.

I don't believe in the "God" of the mormon church. But I FIRMLY believe He does exist, along with Jesus Christ.

And we wouldn't want to be you if jesus as a "god" IS a myth. But I know that Jack climbed that beanstalk and that the wolf really did blow 2 of the 3 little pigs houses down...except the brick house.

oh ... scarey time guy


fail ^^



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 01:15PM by mindlight.

Thanks for the site recommendation - I get a lot of free books from other sites, but had never heard of this one. I've recently realized I was an atheist all my life and I feel freer than I ever have before. It's amazing. Glad you've figured it out too. :)

... the fact remains that there are mere handful of highly questionable, way-after-the-fact accounts and a couple of sideshow oneliners, all of which describe a magical mystery man and none of which can be verified or even cross-referenced to other cultures.

There is even less evidence to support the notion of an hysterical figure named JuHEEsus who walked around talking good s**t.

Its all fairy tales and hocus-pocus aimed at picking people's pockets.

Good call!

Timothy

"Hate to be you If it happens to be true" could be applied to any of the thousands of religions that have existed throughout history and prehistory. (The precautionary principle.) Following that logic, you'd better join every faith that you can find!

Actually, not only do I disbelieve in Christianity... I don't believe there's any God. Even if there were, He wouldn't require us to set up organizations that say you must seek him only through them, and charge you money for the privilege.

There probably was a man upon which the Jesus myth is based. He probably gained some adoring followers and became politically entangled, getting in trouble to the point that he was executed. They then built a cult around him. It was hijacked by the Romans later.

Hi Utah County Mom! Utah County Grandpa here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2012 01:53PM by rationalguy.

rationalguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Hate to be you If it happens to be true" could be
> applied to any of the thousands of religions that
> have existed throughout history and prehistory.
> (The precautionary principle.) Following that
> logic, you'd better join every faith that you can
> find!
>
> Actually, not only do I disbelieve in
> Christianity... I don't believe there's any God.
> Even if there were, He wouldn't require us to set
> up organizations that say you must seek him only
> through them, and charge you money for the
> privilege.
>
> There probably was a man upon which the Jesus
> myth is based. He probably gained some adoring
> followers and became politically entangled,
> getting in trouble to the point that he was
> executed. They then built a cult around him. It
> was hijacked by the Romans later.
>



From what I've researched and analyzed it looks like it wasn't hijacked by Rome later, but created around the time of the Jewish 1st war 60 - 70ce by Roman officer (soon-to-be emperor) Vespasian and his son (soon-to-be emperor) Titus. They found Josephus in a cave and not only spared him, but Josephus got them enamored with the Jewish Messiah story. Josephus grew up in Cana, the first place Jesus did miracles, and never knew about it enough to tell Vespasian? Instead Josephus told Vespasian about a general story and Vespasian loved it. Josephus became Vespaspasian writer and lived with them in Rome. Convenient that Josephus could assist them to Romanize the Jews by being a Jew himself. Romanizing and Hellenizing the Jews was an on-going work for them. The Vespasian, Josephus and Pliny connection timelines relates to the later knowledge of any Jesus storyline.
Emperor Vespasian and Titus and Clement 1 were linked as Clement 1 was the first pope and a relative of Emperor Vespasian. Josephus, Pliny the Elder, were best buddies with Vespasian. I think Vespasian sounds like he suffered from a text-book case of Stockholms Syndrome in his alliance and allegiance to his captor Vespasian. All the early clergy text was referenced from Josephus then, and unfortunately still is to this day by unknowledgable folks who do not connect the dots to names and dates and timelines.

And...that's why I don't think it was ever hijacked later, but the decades of loss of information would more indicate the era where the story to Romanize the Jews platform was being laid. Enter Paul and Ignatius who helped that along with the support of Clement 1, and now we're back to the Roman based group again.

Nope, if there were a Jesus Messiah, Josephus would have mentioned it to Vespasian as a pre Jewish War incident, instead of how Josephus handled the topic of the Messiah in discussion with Vespasian and dated more toward, and after, the 60-70ce Jewish war which propelled Vespasian to became emperor, with his writer Josephus at his beck and call, along with Pliny and his relative Clement 1 (Roman Catholic pope).

A type-o in the above comment should read,
I think Joesphus (not Vespasian) sounds like he suffered from a text-book case of Stockholms Syndrome in his alliance and allegiance to his captor Vespasian.

I've signed up to use the edit function, but couldn't use the anonymous coward handle, so had to choose a different one, my initials dec, formerly anonymous coward.

I've always thought about the Jesus story as just that, "a story that's been told." All the pictures of Jesus I had seen as a kid in the bible and various renditions of his "likeness" were so different that I had a confusing image of him. I especially liked the Mormon pictures of Jesus - he looks so handsome and robust, but I would imagine he probably looked more like Osama Bin Laden :-).

It is my opinion that Jesus was more about representing (symbolizing) the Christ within. The "Christ" is an archetypal term and was originally symbolized as a lion (before the Jesus story) - remember the Narnia tales. The Christ center is our True Self where we connect with God (the Universe, the Cosmos, etc.). Our little bodies and minds could not begin to grasp the magnitude of what lies beyond ourselves and the image and understanding of Christ gives us a connection.

For me it was pure logic.

The only reason for him to have lived was the atonement. The only reason for the atonement was to forgive our sins. The only reason sin exists is because the fall of Adam. No Adam, no "sin". Ergo, the bible has to be a literal work. I don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth. It doesn't work out.

It was simple for me.

It took me about a year after leaving mormonism to learn that all religion is b.s. I now find Christianity just as offensive as Islam or any other magical belief system.

I also have a tough time with exmos who don't use the same tools and standards they used to leave mormonism and apply them to all aspects of life (not just religious beliefs).

Congratulations on your freedom and props for usin' your noggin!

Jesus is credited with many wise parables and metaphors. But He also gave us Hell and demonic possession.

For the poster who said "I don't want to be you if Jesus is not a myth": hm, that sounds eerily similar to a Muslim fundamentalist who believes all should convert to Islam.

So who is right? The Muslims? or the Christians who think those who are not Christian or are not saved will not go to heaven? That sure leaves out a lot of good people of other belief systems.

What a lonely place heave would be.