I had the most bitter sweet experience of my life recently. My family and i went on vacation and did a major Church History tour. We went to Carthage Jail and Nauvoo and independence Mo. Did the whole nine yards.

This is why it absolutely sucks. I KNOW ALL the crap about the history of the church. I know all the stuff that Joseph Smith did. I know how the church doesn't operate like a church.

So why the HELL did i have a very strong spiritual witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God with all the crap that goes with it?

To accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God i have to accept that that same God accepted Smith pulling all his shenanigans that would get any of us excommunicated post haste from the church today.

So I have 3 choices. . None of them good.

1. The spirit was confirming the church is true and if i dont go along i am now really outer darkness bound and God's a psycho for having such a dysfunctional disaster as HIS CHURCH.

2. The prompting was of the devil and i an deceived.

3. I am in serious need of mental help?

I'm not too happy to have this witness on top of knowing all i know. Because if the the church fully is God's Church.... This earth was created by a lunatic.

And that is why i don't like the spirit right now. My wife thought it would help my testimony. .. which i guess it did because i believe alright and if it is true. .. THE WORLD IS TOTALLY F#€¥ED!!!

Choice # 4. You had a strong emotional reaction that came from yourself and not from God or the devil.

Ultra - Please read my post from late last night called:
Witness of the Holy Ghost a conditioned response? It might help you work through your feelings.

Choice #5 Rise above it all. Forget it all. Let it go. Be free.

The truth is within you!

We all have the truth within us, very helpful to return to when other influences are pulling us in confusing directions.

First of all, stop calling what you felt a witness (it wasn't).

Emotional manipulation is what it is.

No demons or angels are in play here (at least not the supernatural kind).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2014 10:43PM by nonsequiter.

Correct - TSCC, and religion in general, has mastered the art of emotional manipulation.

Exactly! I feel what was formerly known as the 'Spirit' when I watch Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings. This does not mean these are a true history (although it would be pretty cool if they were).

I think you've had your emotions played by the tour guide.

My dad was in the Navy. He was an SOB who treated his kids like crap, and I didn't even go to his funeral. But to this day when I hear the Navy hymn or see a guy in a Navy uniform I have a gut reaction of love and pride. It doesn't mean that now I realize my dad was a good guy (he wasn't), it's just the way I was brought up.

You can get past this.

I happened to turn my radio to "The Sounds for Sunday" today and didn't even realize it. There was instrumental music and I thought, 'Oh, I love this song, what is it?" Then I recognized that it was church music. I never did figure out what the song was.

I actually thought to myself for a minute that I miss the music. I miss some of the feelings I had. Could I go back? I actually THOUGHT THAT TODAY. Me. I got over it fairly quickly. The music effects me more than anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2014 11:14PM by cl2.

I've been on all of those tours....several times.

They are totally scripted to cause the reaction you had. It's all extremely manipulative. When you see them in action over and over again you realize how much you're being played.

They gotcha.

It was an emotion, nothing more, easily explainable by simple psychological principles of classical and operant conditioning. You do not have a supernatural internal truth detector that only works for Mormons.

I recently saw a "mentalist" that was able to convince people that they felt something (stroke of a feather) that the entire audience saw did not actually happen. I think you can probably find him on YouTube. His name is Wayne Hoffman.

Anyway, the point it, you can make people behave in certain ways and believe certain things just by what you say. I totally agree with madalice and holytheghost.

Now you know how hard the church works to snare its victims, and how successful it can be when it all comes together. Thank goodness you won't be one of their victims.

I agree with the points that everyone has made so well above...and I also want to point out that this experience is not limited to Mormonism. ;)

I'm sure that Muslims feel the same feelings when they make the obligatory Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca...and that Catholics feel the same way when they go to Lourdes (Our Lady of Lourdes, in France), to Mexico City (where Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared), or Fatima (Our Lady of Fatima, in Portugal), or to the Vatican in Rome...or Protestants when they are at the Sea of Galilee or they wade into the Jordan River...or Buddhists when they go to any number of world Buddhist shrines (like the site of the original bodhi tree)...or Hindus when they finally experience the Ganges River (or any number of Hindu holy places)...and I know for a fact that I felt that same way when I saw (from our bus :D ) the mountain that is so much a part of the story of D'vorah and Yael in the Bible...

...I even felt that same thing when I was at the Roman ruins which adjoin the alligator farm in Israel...and I am most definitely NOT "ancient Roman" in my beliefs!!!

I imagine that many people also feel this same feeling when they see the statue of David...or the statue of Zeus...or hold in their hand a miniature figure crafted in the ancient Middle East several thousand years ago, or they see for themselves the originals of the ancient Egyptian artifacts we know so well from photographs...or, as I did, walk through Rembrandt's
house...or the existing buildings where Mozart grew up...or stand directly next to the tomb where Abraham Lincoln's body rests.

This has nothing to do with the "truth" of ANY culture or people or religion...

...it has EVERYTHING to do with suddenly making a real, physical connection to a past that is somehow very personally meaningful in YOUR life.


[EDITED to correct my mistypings! ;) ]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2014 02:08PM by tevai.

Lourdes is in France. That "apparition" is Our Lady of Lourdes.

Your assessment is spot on. It's not "the spirit" (tm); it's the welling of personal human emotion.

In a hurry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lourdes is in France. That "apparition" is Our
> Lady of Lourdes.


Thanks, In a hurry...I mistyped. :D

(I edited my post to clear up the mistyping, as well as a couple of ambiguities.)

I had similar feelings in church, but I've felt then elsewhere too. I don't assume Lord of the Rings is scripture just because I had the same feelings watching the movie as I did singing praise to the man in the mtc.

My wife and I have been having a "Truth Crisis" for about a year now. We've been studying like crazy but never could really put to rest this issue until we watched these short videos by Chris Johnson, particularly videos seven and eight. His "I'm an Ex-Mormon video was another jaw dropper for us. Check them out.

http://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5F1EB3B4F919226D


http://youtu.be/nj9uLK-Z1MM

I will never forget the spiritual feelings I had as a teen in a protestant church. It was a sunrise Easter service and a young man played a trumpet salute as the sun broke over the horizon. I guess I should have listened to the spirit and remained a protestant!

Never underestimate the power of cult indoctrination. Ever.

We were brainwashed. It goes deeper than most know. The knee-jerk reaction is strong. Truth is the antidote but it doesn't necessarily undo the damage immediately.

Those particular feelings are not the sole property of the Mormon church. They are happening constantly all around the world by every religion and even non religion. It's just that the Mormon religion chooses to hold those feelings to your throat like a knife.

Maybe it was emotional manipulation that led to those feelings. Or maybe it was something noble and beautiful inside of you.

My best guess is that it was your natural intelligence telling you that it was natural and even commendable for you to believe in Joseph Smith when you didn't know what you know now. Or possibly you were telling yourself that yes, Joseph Smith really existed, or that yes, he had it coming to get lynched at Carthage. Maybe you feel deep down that everyone can be forgiven, and that now Joseph Smith has a chance to repent after his inevitable death.

I hope you can figure it out. It's okay if you felt that he was a real prophet, but you might want to give it some more thought.

It's easy to look back and say the feelings weren't of divine origin, but there are other explanations such as:

1. Your higher self talks to the lower you through the "HG". You wanted you to experience the LDS lie, so you made it happen. It's like you left yourself a note saying "duck" and you ducked.

2. You asked if it was true but you asked the wrong question. The principles of love and forgiveness and peace and harmony are true so they felt good. But then the culture and the ideology is so at odds with all of that your mind gets warped.

Think of it like this. How would you know what true evil is if you hadn't experienced it for yourself? If someone had told you of an ideology that calls itself good and godly but separates people from true divinity while substituting a fake one, you would never believe it. You can't imagine fake love without living it.

It didn't kill you, it made you stronger.

Very well said. Litmus test for true spiritual experience vs manipulation of symbols-- what did you want to do after you got home? If you wanted to start a ministry for LGBTs, for example, something touched you. If you bought a new portrait of JS, think again.

My sacred grove is the northern California redwood forest. I think what I feel there is similar to the Mormon bosom warming. I've never felt it in church. I have been in a jail cell (juvenile), and that was how I felt at church.

Sometimes when I am watching a TV program I get all choked up, I take that as a witness that television is true; whatever that means. Sometimes when reading gay short stories on line I have an emotional response and I take that to mean that homosexuality is true. Now that I believe with every fiber of my being. What does is mean that homosexuality is true? I don't know, but I do believe!

you KNOW intellectually that JS is not what he claimed to be. That can be verified with facts and evidence (like the B of A).

You also know you felt something strong.

So I think you can conclude that those feelings don't mean that JS is a prophet. They mean something different. Often, church songs or videos or presentations appeal to very basic human emotions. The fact that you respond, just means you are human. Hollywood movies, great songs, and amazing art can all reach those emotions. It doesn't make those things "true". It just means they are moving.

I've done the experiment with my sister, I can get her to feel the spirit with 100% accuracy just by adopting the Mormon mannerisms, tone, and word choice. It is emotional manipulation, plain and simple. Nothing magical about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2014 03:24PM by notnewatthisanymore.

You know how it says in the US The Declaration of Independence "We hold these truths to be self-evident"?

Well the idea that good feelings mean the Mormon church is God's One True Church is not a self-evident truth. Somebody had to tell indoctrinate you with that idea.

Who told you that good feelings mean the Mormon church is God's One True Church? Oh right, that would be the Mormon church. If this truth were self-evident, nobody would have had to indoctrinate you.

Good happy feelings are called elevation. And they don't have any particular metaphysical meaning.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-matousek/wired-for-elevation-this-_b_842004.html

You either had a warm fuzzy feeling that JS was all he was supposed to be or your life with a tbm family was going to turn to hell. You didn't agree with your parents and you ran the real risk of being kicked out...but not before you were verbally brutalized.

What kid can handle that? Seriously. You felt what you had to feel to survive in that moment of our life. We all did.