I've been hearing a lot of TBMs justify the mall by claiming that it is an "investment" that allows the church to pay out more for humanitarian aid. This is laughable. First of all, the church is spending 4 times as much on City Creek and related development as it has on all the humanitarian aid that the church has ever given out. And that is just the money spent on one mall! Think about how much tithing the church has used for all its other investments.

Secondly, if they think that they are going to be getting a return on their "investment" any time soon, they are fooling themselves. Today, on NPR's "Talk of the Nation", they aired a program where they predicted that the shopping mall is headed for major downsizing as an industry because of competition from Amazon.com and other online retailers. Some experts were predicting that as much as half of the current space in retailers will be gone in the coming decades. Why did God think this was a good investment again?

Thirdly, even if the mall business were stellar, there is no way that any mall operator is going to recoup 5 billion dollars from one mall anytime soon. Although the LDS church does not release its financials, we can get an idea of how much a mall makes for the operators by looking at the financial charts for Taubmann Co (the City Creek Mall operator). Remember, Taubmann owns dozens of malls across the United States. According to their stock charts, (http://ycharts.com/companies/TCO/performance) they netted only 176 million dollars in the last year from all of their malls. And this was a really good year for them! They have been in the red for the four years before that. TBMs may not like science or history or anything else "worldly" for that matter, but they cannot deny the math. When the mall operator only makes 176 million dollars from dozens of malls, it doesn't look like City Creek is going to start paying them back in the next century.

Not to mention the decline in Real Estate prices currently. Much of the investment from the church is in high rise condos. I don't think they're selling like hotcakes nor will they any time soon.

I posted on facebook about the mall when it opened and that was one of the responses I got... my response was along the lines of "As far as we can tell, based on the humanitarian aid numbers given by TSCC, they have NEVER used profits from the for-profit investments for anything other than re-investment into more for-profit ventures."

The morgbots are so desperate to not be devoted to an evil corporation that they will imagine good even when it is unreasonable to do so. I think this is why TSCC is so secretive about it's inner-workings... they know that without any evidence, the sheeple will only imagine the best.

I had a conversation the other day with my TBM father about the financial issues related to the mall. His response was that the costs are justified, despite whether or not it is a good investment, because it is critical to the appearance of the church that the area surrounding church headquarters, temple, etc. be impressive.

I didn't want to argue the point with him, as it is futile and I love him and don't want to upset him. Nonetheless, I think that many TBM's feel similarly. Apparently, the Lord wants an impressive downtown Salt Lake City to attract interest in the church, and therefore the massive cost is justified. It's just another missionary tool and money is no object compared to the cost of souls - missionary work, in every manner and type, is what the church is about and the costs of any project, therefore do not matter. Crazy, I know.

well the mall part is only 700,000 square feet...a VERY small mall on the order of things...which may benefit them...a good size regional mall is over 1,000,000 square feet
also here is something from the COO of Simon malls the largest regional mall property owner in the US...
Overall, national mall sales rose by 4.6 percent in 2010 over 2009—the best performance for the sector since 2006.
so the mall situation may be ok for the foreseable future...the question is...can they sell all the real estate they have?

I believe I heard a GA recently say that most of the church's investments are asset-draining, and used that as an argument against the nay-sayers that the church is all about profit. I suppose this means they think they did a good deed by financially supporting all those contractors through such difficult economic times - which is better than simply giving money away to people who have made no effort to earn it. It also boosts the economy - thus giving it a wider effect than simple charity.

In the end they likely won't recover the assets, but they'll feel good about themselves, and will have an extra level of control over the surroundings of their cherished temple square. That's what I'd say they're thinking.

Well that makes perfect sense! As followers, ney, disciples of Christ, they're just emulating him. Christ never just gave stuff away without expecting people to earn it! Oh, wait...

So they are bad investors. That should inspire confidence!

snowball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So they are bad investors. That should inspire
> confidence!


Just like Joe! It's a sign, guys... the church is every whit as legit as Joseph Smith.

who posted awhile back while the mall was being constructed. He seemed to have some inside sources as to what was going on. I am hoping he comes back again soon to report more on it now that the thing is complete.

Oh Mighty Builder, where ARE you?

( yah, and some poster predicted the CCC mall cost at 5 billion $ ..... THREE YEARS AGO, what a great *guess*! and they were treated by many here like they had claimed to find the gold plates...... I wonder why they dont come around here anymore? )

Why should this one be any different?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 04:02PM by helamonster.

Great post CaptainMoroni...to further your analysis, lets say that the 176 million dollar (total profit) figure applied to 10 malls (a very conservative figure). That would be an average of 17.6 million dollars per mall. Just to be liberal, let's bump that up to 30 million per year of anticipated profit for Cedar Creek. It would take, what, 166 years to recoop that 5 billion.

The holy ghostus just revealed to me the hand of the Lord in this measure...the cedar creek mall will be here during the Millenium. The saints will need a place to purchase garmets, scriptures, clothing, and other supplies. Now it is clear to me. The wisdom of the Mormon Gawd..priceless.

Investment = so they are going to help the poor ... someday. In the meantime, while people are struggling and dying, they are going to build a mall to make money to help someone down the road. And if it's about not wanting to give handouts, there are many ways they could have used that money to help people help themselves. They could build schools in Africa and South America, they could help outfit inner city and rural schools in America, they could give the custodians back their jobs, they could help their own members who are on the verge of losing their homes refinance, they could give scholarships to kids in other countries who might not have a chance to go to school, they could give out small business loans to those with the moxy to try to make their way in the world...
the list goes on and on and on. But they chose to just help those in Salt Lake City, many of whom are connected to or friends with the Big 15. The rest of the church outside the morridor can suck it, in their opinion, as long as there are jobs and a stimulated economy and a beautiful downtown in Salt Lake City.

I wonder how a member in Ecuador who is struggling to feed her children so she can pay her tithing feels about the church having that kind of money to throw around and not at least giving her a break in paying her tithing. If nothing else, they could have given tithing passes to their poorest members. And still had the money to build a nice park downtown instead.

This is why when people ask me if I watched conference, I say "I watched the mall opening instead. It pretty much summarized everything I needed to know about the church and the general authorities."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 04:36PM by CA girl.

So called retail experts predicting the demise of retail real estate for years. First back in the early 90's,theaters were going to become ex tint, since then they have doubled the number of theaters.

People are social annimals, and the more isolated we become in the work force, the more we want to connect with others. Going to a Mall or entertainment center fulfills some of this need.

That being said the development costs of city creek (mall portion) on a per square foot basis is 5 times greater than the average for space that demands similar rent rates. That spells trouble.

The church has already written this cost off. Going forward, and based on the restructured costs to Taubman, this Mall will break even or better.

Taubman will show a profit on this, and all the Church members will say what success this project is, but nobody will take into consideration the sunk development costs that has already been written down.

What part of the 5 billion will be recouped relatively quickly with the sale of the condos?

I feel once the novelty and newness wears off,,in a year or so,,other more convenent shopping centers and discount venues will pass it by. I have no intrest to drive to Salt Lake,,fight traffic,,pay to park,,shop in high price places.

TBM's have no idea what the benefit to the Church the Mall is supposed to be. They don't know how much it cost, where the money came from, the cost benefit numbers. They know nothing. The speculation is to help themselves sleep at night and avoid contemplating just how Satanesque the Church has become...

So who were the contractors? Who profited from the construction itself? Is it a money laundering operation?

again, most likely NOT disclosed by ChurchCo.

unless the contractors showed up in marked vehicles, and someone noted them, keeping track of visits, etc. No one's Ever going to know.

That's the way ChurchCo does 'everything', isn't it?

Is this a process that invites kick-backs? YES, it is.
the only exception might be if Taubman's participation was partly determined by the actual, out-of-pocket costs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 07:56PM by guynoirprivateeye.

yep - they don't intend to make a return long term - it's about certain people making LOTS of money in the short term

in the long term TSCC gains more control over the temple area... so there's that benefit as well

but "return on investment" wasn't really a consideration IMO

GOOD!

Many of the members do not even KNOW of the existence of this mall!

I can't even with this church mall thing. I feel like they honestly don't think that members need to know about what went in to build it or anything. Although, honestly most people outside of Utah probably have never heard of it. I'm sure if I asked my parents, they probably haven't. I assume most people won't think that the church had anything to do with it though. Because how could the one true church build a over-priced shopping mall for rich people with money that should be used for other things?

Yeah. Nice to see where our tithing went!

so you're saying Taubmann Co. can claim the mall as an "asset" and an "expense" on their T-charts???
Wow!

Nothing like burning the candle at both ends!

Credit as an asset

Credit as a write off.

Legal, but hardly ethical..... it's amazing they only made a few million last year when their newest project cost 5 Billion!

Psst! It's really the future secret headquarters of the Mormon World Government! Why else would someone spend five billion dollars on a mall in Utah? Why, you would think that Salt Lake City was the Dubai of the Great Basin...

Emirates Mall Dubai -- Solid Gold Bentley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgUaeUj4so

Emirates Mall Dubai -- Indoor Ski Slope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DycMJc-Ow-E&feature=related

Emirates Palace -- Gold Bullion ATM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtNR7ks946c

there was a certain person who was intimately familiar with the CCC numbers to know THREE YEARS ago that the cost was going to be 5 billion dollars. This same person (and its not me) is still looking at numbers, and they are saying there is no way for this mall to pay off in any realistic way. Its a loser.

and knowing the MORmONS (and this is all me on this one) their MORmON response will be to spend another 5 billion to make it work.

Allow me to play the devil’s advocate for a moment.

Why do you assume that the City Creek project needs to be financially profitable and payback all the costs of building the project? Has the President of The Church ever made a public statement saying that is necessary?

For better or for worse downtown Salt Lake City (SLC) is the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (CoJCoLDS). Temple Square is the #1 tourist attraction in the State of Utah. The Church wants to put its best foot forward, especially to non-Mormon first-time visitors to Temple Square. The CoJCoLDS does not want its headquarters located in the middle of an economically distressed, shoddy-looking downtown area. Prior to beginning the City Creek project, that area was a disjointed relic of bygone days. Both the ZCMI and Crossroads Malls were showing their age. A lot of the downtown area had deteriorated and was a marginal eyesore.

So it makes perfect sense that the Big-15 Brethren wanted to remodel the downtown area to make it nice and shiny again. Did they accomplish that goal? Only time will tell.

Since I live on the east coast I haven’t visited SLC for 12 years. From what I have read, the City Creek project has been nicely done and is visually attractive. Of course the merchants there are not in competition with Walmart and Target. It is logical that the stores are upscale and cater to the well-healed consumer. Only time will tell if enough customers will patronize the merchants so that they are profitable. I am sure that The Church wants that to happen.

Would it be a financial catastrophe if the mall merchants are not highly profitable? Probably not. The CoJCoLDS has the option of lowering the rent that the merchants pay if that is needed to keep the Mall fully occupied and profitable for the merchants.

The CoJCoLDS is in a financially strong position because they have convinced their hardcore members that they must pay tithing in order to be top-dogs in the alleged magical afterlife. The amount of tithing that they take in each year is a closely guarded secret. But I will make a SWAG (Sophisticated Wild Ass Guess) at the amount. If you don’t like my SWAG, then feel free to do your own.

Suppose there are 2,000,000 tithe-paying members worldwide who earn an average income of $35,000. That means the aggregate annual income of those members is $70 billion. If they pay a 10% tithe, then that is $7 billion paid to the CoJCoLDS each year. If the total cost of the City Creek project was ONLY $5 billion, then the cost of City Creek was less than one years’ worth of tithing income.

If The Church has successfully rebuilt downtown SLC and made it an attractive, prosperous location for Church Headquarters, then I submit that they have achieved their goal, even if the Mall does not make a financial profit.

SWAG - love it.

I don't think it was ever meant to be profitable either. I was trying to demolish the claims of TBMs who claim that it is an investment so that they can do more humanitarian aid. That is silly.

Whether the church should be spending 5 billion dollars on making its headquarters look pretty or feeding millions of starving poor people is the real question here. When put in those terms, it's hard for anyone to defend the mall. That is why they claim it will be profitable.

$35k a year seems low for 2 million

Many make a great deal more and some super wealthy .

I'm thinking more like 45k-50K as an average on 2 million.
Not hard to see 10 thousand million( ten billion) a year going into their pockets.
Like someone said earlier most lds don't know the connection of city creek to lds or its real estate arm ( any monies) cause they are sacred funds.
They are just question-less drones paying on gross wages. I still think the top 15 really don't have a handle on the money.
I think downline the likes of Ensign Advisers and Deseret Management pull the purse strings.

One more possible explanation for the Great and Glorious Mormon Mall: LD$ Church leaders can see the writing on the wall. Their organization is going downhill. They foresee a time when they will not be able to gull enough gullible sheeple to keep themselves in the manner to which they have become accustomed. Therefore, they got together and devised a way to disperse a lot of cash to those whom they considered deserving.

Maybe LD$ Inc. leaders were/are afraid that their nefarious financial dealings will be revealed in this age of nothing-is-hidden-from-the-internet. They made a big play in advance. Lots of contractors and mormon buddy-buddies received big paydays.

Plus, there's always the "passive income" from leasing the land on which the mall sits. The Church, not the non-profit arm of the church, owns that real estate (or so I understand), and passive income is not taxable if it accrues to a non-profit organization.