One thing I like about RfM is that there are people here who have similar experiences of having to deal with TBM friends and family after the confessions of disbelief occur. I have to keep coming back to RfM just to gain strength from everyones experiences and commitments to telling the truth about TSCC. I have been inactive for many years, I became burned out and quit going to church. Only then was I able to start seeking answers to the difficult questions that I have had all my TBM life and study my way out of the church. My wife has also become inactive but remains confused about whether the church is true or not or if religion really matters at all. Two years ago we quit wearing garments, what a relief! My disbelief is known to my DM and my DB and DS and it has caused some conflicts so I have had to keep religion out of my discussions to keep the peace. My DM is in her eighties and it is the last thing I want to do is fight about mormonism. Mormonism works for her and comforts her in her twilight years. But when my wife and I went back home to visit, my DM realized, to her horror, that we were not wearing garments. The night before we left to come back home, my DM sat both my wife and I down and gave us a good tongue lashing. So here am I, in my fifties, getting disciplined by my mother. I was upset that my DM brought my wife into the discussion! It should have only been between me and my DM! I thought we had agreed to NOT discuss religion! I wanted to blast out all of the things I have learned but had to refrain due to the fact that I do not want to cause her stress at her age over her chosen religion. She wants to know why I have left TSCC. I said it was church history and doctrine. I mentioned the ‘Journal of Discourses’ being a treasure trove of wacky teachings. She had never heard of the ‘ Journal of Discourses’. Good grief! REALLY! I have tried to not let this experience upset me but it has. For so many years I have had to defend TSCC and it’s ridiculous teachings, convince myself that TSCC is true and now I have to defend my unbelief! I am so sick and tired of it all, I just want to be left alone and live my life as I choose without anymore guilt trips from anyone! I apologize for the lengthy post and thanks for letting me vent.

My attitude with my TBM family has always been that if they respect my choices in life I'll respect theirs. And they've all learned by hard experience that if they start pushing mormonism on me in any form they're going to get a sh!tstorm in return. They only try it once. My Mom turns 83 today, and even she is not exempt.

bezoar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My attitude with my TBM family has always been
> that if they respect my choices in life I'll
> respect theirs.

Exactly. If anyone ever pulls a stunt like that on me, I'll let them know in no uncertain terms that if they continue, then they'd better be prepared to give me equal time. And I'd warn them that they might hear things that they really won't like.

It's only fair.

I total get what you're feeling on that. TBM family members (especially parents) will always have 2 weapons that they attempt to use on those who have left. Their love for you as a child (family member) and their attempt to get you to feel guilt over your decision to leave.

Parents who feel grief over your decision to leave will almost always blame you for the feelings of grief that they are feeling. You then feel bad for causing them that grief and sit silently while they continually lecture you about your bad choices that are causing them so much pain.

I have learned that, for me, the best way to deal with it if fire back with the fact that the church has been allowed to lie to its members for so long that I am sick of it and can no longer allow TSCC to lie to myself or my children.. Ever point my parents make I bring right back to them and the church.

I will no longer allow them to attempt to guilt me into letting them talk to me that way or to blame me for their feelings over me recognizing the truth and acting on it.

Its like I told my parents last time we had this discussion. I love them enough that I would die for either of them. But there is no way in hell that I will continue to LIVE for them. My life is my own and I only get one of them. I won't be guilted into living a lie because it would make them feel better.

I can understand the desire for you to let your mother in her 80's live out the remainder of her life in her TBM comfort zone. You have to make that call.

I too am in my fifties and have a father who is 85+ and is a fifth generation BIC member. I read an article several months ago that made me search to see if Joseph Smith really translated the BoM with a rock and a hat. It disturbed me so much that I had to prove it wrong. Suddenly, I learned that it was true and that the perfect image I had of Joseph Smith suddenly began to fall rapidly. I couldn't stop reading. Before long I was digesting MormonThink. At each new discovery I would go over to be dad's house and share what I had just discovered.

My father had been one of those TBM's that bought tons of books and read about deep doctrine. He considers himself a truth seeker. As I began to tell my father one thing or another, he would try to look up apologetic material to find answers. One day I went over late in the evening to show him the section in MT by Tom Donofrio -- the section of parallel wordings and stories in the BoM and other American writings of Joseph Smith's day. When I read a story line that ending similar to "Brethren Adieu" my dad flipped. He then started reading MormonThink.

Long story short, after three months of sharing information, my TBM dad said, "the church is a fraud." One year later on one of my visits, I walked into his bedroom while he was reading RFM. He simply said, "I hate this church."

This came from a man who had dedicated hundreds of thousands of dollars to tithing, building funds, scouts, at least a dozen full time missionaries, temple funds, fast offerings, etc. He's still in debt $200K on his mortgage because of all the $$$ he gave to TSCC over the years. Now he wished he had it all back and was debt free.

My dad, in his late years, read the material and learned for himself that the Mormon Church cannot stand on its foundational claims. Period. He has not been to church in 1-1/2 years and never wants a thing to do with it again.

His only regret: the money spent and the huge posterity of TBM's that he now has in the brainwashed clutches of the Morg. He regrets it all. But, he now lives guilt free and tells me often how happy he is that I persisted at showing him what I was discovering.

Everyone is different and may or may not be open to the truth, especially in their twilight years. Those who are really honest with their minds (like my dad) and are not afraid to read anything CAN leave the church and become an exmo.

Usually someone at that stage in life isn't interested in anything enough to go to the effort to learn and study. They are comfortable and happy to be status quo.

Congratulations on helping your dad. That is a cool story.

Absolutely incredible! Love your story. My parents are gone but they were not open to discussion so I would have been wasting my breath, (possibly) endured endless lectures, and been a major disappointment to them.

Classical guy
Now that is a faith un-inspiring story! Maybe there should be a part of exit stories for sharing the un-gospel.

Excuse me mom, we have to leave now. Talk to you later when you're feeling better. Then get up and walk out.

This is the hard part -- keeping it clear that when there is some kind of "tongue lashing" going on (someone attacking you personally for any reason) is 100% about them.

It's their way of confirming what they are about , their ideas, etc.

It is not personal! And it's possible to learn to refrain from taking on any emotional angst.

I still work on this one, but it's the only way for me to live with a peaceful inner core!

(white space added for ease in reading)
A quote from: The Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz

"Whatever happens around you, don’t take it personally… Nothing other people do is because of you. It is because of themselves.

All people live in their own dream, in their own mind; they are in a completely different world from the one we live in. When we take something personally, we make the assumption that they know what is in our world, and we try to impose our world on their world.

Even when a situation seems so personal, even if others insult you directly, it has nothing to do with you.

What they say, what they do, and the opinions they give are according to the agreements they have in their own minds…

Taking things personally makes you easy prey for these predators, the black magicians. They can hook you easily with one little opinion and feed you whatever poison they want, and because you take it personally, you eat it up….

But if you do not take it personally, you are immune in the middle of hell. Immunity in the middle of hell is the gift of this agreement."

ahh..to be immune from the "poison" of others!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 12:34PM by SusieQ#1.

Great post.

I believe that people should stand up to certain issues such as the one that your mom violated, however you understand clearly the source of her thinking.

At a certain point in the lives of our older family members it does no good to yank out from underneath them the only thing they can cling to as they knock on deaths door.

What possible thing can be gained from destroying an elderly person faith? That faith is all they have to face the inevitable end to their life on earth. Let them go peacefully and take peace in the fact that when they die that they take the good and the bad with them.

Your mom was only doing what she has been taught to be right and that it was her duty. Many of us if still believers in our old age would also take the position that age has privilege and as the family matriarch or patriarch we had certain rights to call the younger folk on the carpet.

Mom stood up for her beliefs and was concerned enough to say something. That in itself has worth. You saw it for what it was and took the high road.

I do agree with others that family doesn't get a pass because they are old. That is a personal call based on many variables. Only you can decide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 12:45PM by AmIDarkNow?.

No matter the age of a parent or relative, if they are feisty enough to criticize you for leaving the cult they are up to hearing the truth.

Just my humble opinion.

I think it's important to understand that one person's "truth" is not the same for everyone.

I will continue to respect and honor everyone's rights to their personal belief systems. It's not important to impose my ideas on anyone. I prefer to be civil, polite and kind. And grateful I have such a wide variety of folks in my life that enrich it and teach me something.

walk all over you. Unfortunately, frequently the words are meant "personally" and it is rather silly to pretend otherwise. You attempt to ameliorate your foolishness by making sure to tell yourself (and others) how kind. civil and polite you are.

I agree that holding anger in does not help but your solution helps no one either.

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> walk all over you. Unfortunately, frequently the
> words are meant "personally" and it is rather
> silly to pretend otherwise. You attempt to
> ameliorate your foolishness by making sure to
> tell yourself (and others) how kind. civil and
> polite you are.
>
> I agree that holding anger in does not help but
> your solution helps no one either.

If you knew me, personally, you'd know that nobody ever walks all over me.
I hold my own and do it in a kind, polite manner because it is the most effective way to deal with everyone.

I have no anger to hold in. I come from a position of love and compassion and acceptance, respect for everyone's rights.

I learned at a very young age long before I converted: " if you want to keep a friend, don't discuss religion or politics." There is a lot of truth in that statement.

I want to preserve my relationships, not destroy them. Life is very, very short. I am well over the middle mark! My husband has proceeded me in death which has taught me to be appreciative of every day I have left. Appreciation and gratitude are concepts that are very powerful! I use them!

I don't see any need to intrude on other people's sacred religious beliefs and rights.

I have found that my solution (which it appears that you have possibly misunderstood) is very powerful and successful!

If, you think my position, solution is "foolishness" then ignore it. Don't read my posts if they upset you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2014 02:05PM by SusieQ#1.

at the end of your post:

"For so many years I have had to defend TSCC and it’s ridiculous teachings, convince myself that TSCC is true and now I have to defend my unbelief! I am so sick and tired of it all, I just want to be left alone and live my life as I choose without anymore guilt trips from anyone!"

That may be what you'll need to say to your mother. (Maybe edit out the word "ridiculous" for your mother's sake).

Clearly, this tongue-lashing from your mother wasn't worth tolerating, because you are still stewing about it. My husband had an experience with his mother when he was visiting her with our kids and she tried to order him not to do something on Sunday that didn't fit HER beliefs. When you are in your 40s or 50s, you really don't have to let your mother tell you what underwear to wear or what you are allowed to do on Sunday. Sometimes it's okay to say "Mom, I'm a 50-year-old man now, and I get to decide. I'm done talking about my underwear with you."

Sometimes it still bugs him, and I think it's because he didn't stand up to her about it. But he did take the kids and go where he was planning to go.

Draw a boundary, leave, or both. Don't listen to a tongue-lashing over your underwear.

I really think it is rather disrespectful to treat someone in such a way because they are older. And it doesn't give them the right to "tongue lash" you.

If someone is in their 80's and ordering you around, they've most likely been getting away with it for years. Their biggest confusion will probably be why it suddenly isn't ok to bully the people they've always bullied.

I learned that the Mormon church is a fraud cult, later in life. I had already raised all my children in Mormonism. I was divorced and had decided to never remarry. My house and career were permanent, and I was stable. My life was over. My kids were afraid to upset me. I was the one who asked them, sincerely, to please tell me WHY they hated church so much--and I got an ear full, and we resigned together within a month.

Honestly, if I had only one more day to live, I would still want to know the Truth! One great, happy, honest, loving day with my children spent understanding each other.

If I had been old and dying, I would be very relieved to know that Heaven isn't structured the way the Mormons claim it is. I would NOT be permanently sealed in a polygamous marriage with a temple husband who beat me. Everyone's families would be together. I would not have to worry about never being perfect enough, never obedient enough, never giving enough money and time to a stupid cult I didn't believe in. One glorious day of not having to pretend, not having to lie anymore. I could share my death with a God who loves me and my children, and everyone else. I would feel loved in my life, and loved in Heaven, too.

If you could give that to an old person, would you hold it back?

Maybe everyone is different than I, but the Mormon cult was the worst thing in my life. It caused the most problems in my life. I'm so glad that I will die free (and live it up, in the meantime.)

Orion 74, I can sypathetically think of lots of reasons that you got involved in an unpleasant experience with your mother. My mother and mother-in-law were/are difficult people. Poor communication skills and inability to see other points of view. Their symptomps worsened in their 80's. Medicine helped their emotional state and enabled loved ones to stand to be around them.

I say, try to let go of the incident. You did nothing wrong. She was clearly out-of-line. You visited your DM which showed support and caring in her old age. I hope you can feel up to seeing her again. Next time you'll be better armed with decisions about boundaries. You'll be able to steer the conversation to more comfortable topics. If not, she may need medical attention for her state-of-mind.

It's funny that your mother didn't know what the Journal of Discourses was. My mother didn't know what blood atonement was! She thought it was the same thing as "The Atonement."

My dad was there too, and I just said that it meant shedding your own blood for your own sins. I didn't mention that there were wonderful, helpful church leaders who would help you shed your own blood...

My 90 year old father has tried to pull the same guilt tactics on me about the catholic church. The funny thing is that deep down, I don't think he honestly believes it, it's more of a case of figuring he's covering his bases just in case.

I don't think he gets a pass, no more than your mother should. He's old, he's not feeble. He can live how he wants to live, but he can't control the religious practices of other adults.

I don't let him lecture me about it. I firmly tell him it is none of his business. I won't try to make him use logic if he doesn't try to sell me magic.