My brother and I have noticed for several consecutive Conference sessions now that the Brethren are running scared from the internet.

That they come out and actually say explicitly "don't believe what you see on the internet" tells me that things must be BAD! Typically Conference is a time to put a smiley face on everything and make the members feel great about Church. To actually warn them about what they may be seeing on the internet is very telling.

Another RfMer tonight expressed surprise that this crisis has become so drastic so quickly. I feel exactly the same way. I have always assumed that the Church is impenetrable (how did the discovery of the Papyrus not bring it down?) But things are moving so fast that I'm starting to believe the Church really could fall. It would be a financial fall, the other dominoes to follow.

I think the leadership knows it is a fraud and they are just hustling to transform their golden goose into organization that can last the next two-hundred years. They are struggling to reinvent the church and make it relevant to the next generations. You will see they day when they throw what would now be considered the devout membersunder the bus--in favor of progressives and younger members.

There was the article where someone stated that they were hemorrhaging existing members and losing the youth. You know that tithing has got to be way down, the economy sucks and those sad-@ss stories of paying tithing first and letting the kids starve are pretty f-ing desperate.

Looking forward to seeing the morg become even more irrelevant.

C U L T

To prime the discussion, what is it about the Internet that you think scares 90 year-old men that can barely manage their biological functions?

This is happening now? Not 5 years ago, 3 or 1?

Not sure you are wrong, just curious if you have made the case.

What is scary to Mormon GA's really? I'm not sure I know. It's
not the Internet alone, but what it does.

I would put community over information, but many claim to leave because of deceptions, especially of history. If the Church were valuable and deceptive. Would people leave?

I think they leave because it is not valuable and not what it claims to be, thus they have a reason to break with a useless if not destructive organization.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 05:44PM by gentlestrength.

I think part of it is that information is available in an instant. Gone are the days where you have to go home to look something up. You can use a phone sitting in a pew or a bus or in a cafe. A conversation can be provided proof as it progresses.

Also more remote areas can get information than ever before. You can't get members as easily in the so called third world since they have access as well.

Remember to not look behind the curtain!

I do think access to information has improved greatly through the Internet, but would put forward the lessening of the sense of aloneness is even more important.

Prior to the Internet leaving Mormonism because it was a lousy belief system meant you would leave alone with no community to validate the decision and a beloved community and family either shunning or judging your decision.

The facts have always been there, the fraud started day one, they never were a legitimate belief system. Now in 2014 that information is readily accessed, but also a sense of aloneness no longer has to exist either. There are more living former Mormons than living Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 02:18AM by gentlestrength.

5 years ago not every person alive had a smart phone with internet access.

I really had to work to find writings critical of the church, and I never really succeeded until after I had figured out for myself that there was simply no way those cartoony stories in the book of mormon and BOA were real. Fast forward 25 years and you can now access slick, referenced, mormon debunking sites by simply typing mormon into your phone browser. So, ya I have no doubt the pace of people leaving is accelerating, but I just can't see them ever being able to stop it without joing full-on Jim Jones on the saints

As others have suggested in other threads, the ability to anonymously discuss doubts over the internet is likely a huge factor.

It's certainly having a huge effect, and my hope that is in due course the information and support so readily available online will lead to the demise of religious fraud everywhere.

"Mormon church is boring"

Probably gets googled from every ward building in the USA at least once a day during "services".

People can no longer be contained by keeping them in the dark and filling them with bullshit. That just fertilizes us to outgrow the church. The church is dying.

Based on what I see on Facebook and at church, I see enough dupes (even among the young) to keep them going for a long time. I have been around the church for 40+ years now and there have always been those who are inactive/leaving the church. 30 years ago I lived in a ward where we actively went out to get rid of people who didn't want home teachers. 20 percent of the ward fell into that category. I don't really think we are seeing anything new, but our ability to communicate about the LDS Church on the internet makes it seem like there is a greater disaffection than there was in the past. The one thing we may be seeing is that more of the inactives are willing to resign now than they were 30 years ago. That may be because the inactives are communicating on the internet and making it easier to find social support for resigning.

You must have missed all the threads where we have all discussed things we came across online that caused our shelves to come crashing down.

If you were happy in Mormonism, why were you looking?

If the Mormon church was meeting needs, the fact that Mormonism chooses to promote the most agreeable version of The First Vision stories and trains you to do the same is the problem?!?

Really. There is no doubt the fraud of their history is terminal, but we still have many TBMs who claim to know these things and stick it out, the Mormon church must be meeting their needs.

This is not meant to deny or reject the reason you left Mormonism. Maybe if the Mormon church stuck with all the versions and taught those people would stay because they love it so much, but need to have all the facts too.

Being a Mormon is hardly a fact-based membership in my opinion. From what I have seen and experience, it is almost entirely based upon emotions. Thus once the emotional reasons become a problem, the search for supporting the desire to leave begins.

People could have left twenty or thirty years ago. It was a crap religion and belief system then too. Just didn't have the support of the proven fraud back then.

I'll stick with the community of former Mormons being the main support from the Internet.

I mean really.

Pray and god will visit you, talk to him like you would your father (Joseph Smith)
Power and authority to act in God's name here on Earth, prove it please (Mormon priesthood)
One True Church (really?!?, God must really love white people, especially Utahns)
Mormon temple death cult rituals (that wasn't a screaming red flag for you, like bonfires and flares to me--Mormonism is a cult)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 05:56PM by gentlestrength.

I wasn't looking. That was my point.

Because I had watched videos related to Mormonism (all faith promoting, I assure you), YouTube recommended to me a video called "Problems with the Book of Abraham." I didn't go looking for it, and in fact, I didn't even watch the video. But my first thought was, "What problems with the Book of Abraham?" I didn't know there were any. I had no idea what it meant. But a fire had been lit right then and there, and there was no way for me to contain it or control it. Just the suggestion that there was something wrong with the BoA was all it took to start my journey out.

That's what the internet does. People can't spend their whole lives with their heads in the sand anymore. Suddenly, even without them seeking it out, the information is right there in front of them. It happens on YouTube, and it happens on Facebook, and it happens on Pinterest. And it certainly happens on Google. It happens in the comments of every news article that even mentions something related to Mormonism.

The game has changed.

I don't know why anyone disputes the fact that the internet has changed the game. Your own personal experience demonstrates that the internet has changed the game. They can't hide the ball any longer.

Was doubt discussed in conference repeatedly 40 years ago? I've been around the church for 30+ years, and I've seen many people go inactive, but I had never seen people leave over doctrine, history, etc... I've seen inactives leave and come back. Today, people are leaving for good. Doubting/apostate family members and friends are discussed in SS and EQ almost every week. I've learned through Facebook that there are three "inactive" families on my street that left because they learned the truth. The BoA essay was discussed on the ward Facebook page, and I imagine over 100 people were exposed to the issue that had never even heard of it before. Marlin Jensen admitted that there hasn't been a period of "apostacy" like we're seeing today since Kirtland. I don't think this is the same thing that's been going on for decades. In addition, 30-40 years ago, families were still joining the church. When is the last time you've seen a family convert? I never even saw this on my mission. I've only seen one convert baptism in the last 10+ years.

The cojcolds is all about control. If they can control their propoganda, their "doctrine", their members, their local media, their politicians, then they are safe.

They have now encountered something they can't control: the internet.

They have done their best to control it, with search engine optimization, advertising, and propoganda campaigns. But the internet is too big, and too free.

They are on the ropes, being pummeled with left hooks and right jabs.

They are pleading for their survival.

"Please don't believe what you read on the internet...Please doubt your doubts!"

They thought that technology would be their ticket to world domination.

Irony indeed.

I have no doubt that the internet is having a severe effect. However, I tend to be rather pessimistic with regards to all of this. Despite the vast array of information available, there are still lots of people who either refuse to or who can't think critically about these or other serious issues.

I take my mom as an example. She read Mormon Enigma, but the blinders are one to such an extent that she found it faith promoting. My younger sister read it and left the church.

I'm sure that there are a lot who are leaving, but one should never underestimate the potential of people to continue to believe weird stuff despite the evidence.

Utah Mormons are very good at wearing the right face at the right time. The "testimony" face includes all the appropriate emotions and phrases that convey to the other Mormons that "I'm sooooo spirichul and my testimony is soooo strong".

Who knows what's really under the plastic wrap?

I think there are three ways that people can have problems with TSCC.

1. Doctrine. Lately it is so hard to define what the doctrine is because it seems to keep changing. For older members who studied the doctrine the new stance that prophets were often speaking as men and therefore what seemed like doctrine actually wasn't doctrine is problematic.

2. History. The internet has definitely made a difference when it comes to uncovering the true history of TSCC.

3. Social Impact. TSCC stand on marriage equality, race and the priesthood, women's issues, tithing payment and tithing use are uncomfortable for many members.

When you have a problem with one area, I think it's natural to start looking at the other areas. If you find, for instance, that some part of the history of the church has been misrepresented, you can ignore it if you feel that the church does good. But, if you also question whether the church is doing good, your devotion to the church can start to waiver.

I think that people are having problems with all three areas right now and that one problem leads to another and the internet makes it easy to find information, share information and give information power.

Surely, the large amount of new coffee shops along the Morridor is an indication of change. It's not a big leap from free internet and a vanilla steamed milk to--gotta find out the truth, oh sh!t it's worse than I thought--to I fucking love my French blend, what's new today on the boards!

The Boner

Lol...nicely put.

I spoke yesterday with a TBM guy who has moved from Utah to Central Kentucky. Knowing that he's active in TSCC, I asked him how he likes his new Kentucky ward. He said that there are about 400 members in the area, but only about 40 come to church at all. He also mentioned that "several people" have resigned very recently. I think that outside Utah things aren't going well.

They aren't going well in Utah either. I have dated a bunch of divorced ex-LDS women lately in SL and Utah Counties, that either started their exit before their divorces, or as a result of divorce. These are ex R.S. presidents and return missionary women I'm talking about. I get the feeling from the street that things are unrevealing a breath taking rate.

It’s pretty clear to us in the UK that the LDS is in terminal decline, all over Europe people have come to the conclusion that religion, at least in an organised sense isn’t for them. Unlike the situation in the United States the Corporation has little or no influence in the corridors of power over here and in these days of mass information such a fraudulent organization cannot survive indefinitely without the support of a powerful lobby.

I fully expect within a fairly short period (6-12 months) to see the LDS first of all exposed by the media (we've already seen the beginning of that on channel 4) and then to be charged with tax evasion. This will have a knock on effect across Europe generally, possibly reaching as far afield as Australia. Once the US Government sees the way the wind is blowing public pressure will force it to take steps to remove this parasitic organization from society once and for all.

Age by age things all change--forever. Bronze Age cancelled out the stone age. Iron Age cancelled out the Bronze Age. The Space Age gave us a stratospheric new outlook at everything.

The Information Age is here now and even a church that somehow
managed to squeak by as it tap danced around its questionable history and even more questionable doctrines has to be affected by the plethora of facts spewed out of computers everywhere.

This is a new game. I call it the Serendipitous Age as far as the Mormon Church goes because we all end up finding knowledge we weren't even looking for. You have to work really hard not to see it. The church is urging people to work that hard, but it won't be like in the past.

The only ones who are going to stay are those that truly buy into the "prophecy" that even the elite will fall away in the end and the greatest test of your faith in the church will be that there is solid evidence against its veracity and you must continue to stick with it when everything about it is probably false. My family will be sticking with it.

Exciting news concerning the UK, as you see it, interested observer, and I so hope you are right, especially about the tax evasion part. Once, the cult is sued successfully by someone for big, big bucks, I think it will get the ball rolling.

In the USA, I think seeing such action will mean a lot, and someone will then sue the cult for fraud.....and do it in a big way.

And it won't stop.

I, too, hope that Interested observer is correct about the tax evasion. It's long overdue. The Scientologists were convicted of "organized fraud" in France, so it is reality that the Mormons could face the same fate. It needs to happen soon.

I think that the Google Apostasy is happening in a different way.

It's not some single major event that instantly proves for millions of Mormons that their church is a fraud.

That model seems very unlikely.

The US Government doesn't usually go after cults.

When they do, it often results in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and etc.

But the Google Apostasy doesn't need a big event. It has a long history of events, and quotes, and scientific facts, and every manor of information that, like the fabled "Death from 1000 Cuts", is taking the Mormon Cult down every minute of every hour of every day in every country that has the internet.

There is no defense from this form of attack.

They have already received the death blow.

It happen without notice, for it was just a part of tipping the scales.

The leadership knows it.

Their research has shown it.

They're trying to deny it in their own minds, and amongst themselves.

But they know that Elohim is giving them Bupkis!

The damn of lies built in the 1830's by the Mormon Founders, and Jerry-rigger by every administration since can no longer hold back the truth.

The Dam is now so badly breached, that total failure is a Fait Accomplis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 06:25PM by sonoma.

Well, if they need help in the transformation, they should call me up. I'm attending another Christian church in town and they are seeing new members, young and old, by the droves. No hymns or hymnals, bands with contemporary music, trained clergy and marriage counseling, fun activities for youth, even a Texas hold 'em night fundraiser, small group meetups on weekdays for men, women, couples, and kids, mounds of charitable opportunities near and far (India for example), and an open accounting to see where the money goes.

This conversation is interesting. I do believe there is a real problem with people leaving because of the Internet, but for some reason, all of extended TBM family and friends are still intact. I'm not sure why. In fact, they won't even listen or read anything that they believe is "anti-Mormon". So, in summary, I am skeptical that the Internet is causing problems in devastations proportions yet.

*devastating proportions

I'd say that if enough parents see their children leave the church, they may leave themselves. Keeping their kids in the church and its lifestyle was the one thing the church was supposed to do for them, in return for all their money and time.