Mormon leaders once had a lot to say about relationships: you should marry someone from your own culture, or your own race, or a returned missionary, and only in the temple, etc. It often seemed like there was a "preferred Mormon type" of couple.

But life outside the cult indicates that mutually-satisfactory relationships come in all different shapes.

One issue is age gaps. In his thoughtful, recent thread, "Forty Year Old Virgin", "anon" worried about finding a partner, since most women his age are now married or in relationships. Thinking about this, I realized that quite a number of the happy couples I know well in town have very large age gaps between partners. All the couples I describe below are real, and I know them well.

1.) B is, I believe, thirteen years older than her boyfriend, . - who, by the way, utterly adores her. They are a match seemingly made in non-Mormon heaven, and cannot get enough of each other. They have been together for years, and I think, will probably always be together. They are trying for a baby.

2.) L, a guy, is 47. His girlfriend is 23. They also utterly adore each other, and often are with L's kids from his previous marriage.

3.) R is a very "young" 52 Belgian guy. His girlfriend is in her early thirties.

4.) My buddy M married C. M is also 52. His wife is, I believe, 30. They are two peas in a pod and now have a child.

5.) A, a young man, is 22. His girlfriend is 31. They live together and are planning a life together.

Speaking for myself, I have gone out with, or just hung out with, quite a few women since my marriage ended in 2008 (I'm 45 now). My experiences have led me to marvel at the sometimes strange ways that attraction works.

One lady I happened to meet on a trip was fifty. She was married, but I have to admit, was fit, curvy, sexy, charming, feminine, service-oriented, and overall, a genuine smokeshow. Her husband (who, coincidentally, was seventeen years her senior) seemed like a lucky guy. Very few guys, even much younger guys, would have not felt attracted to her.

Another lady I met during a trip was single, and not what you would call beautiful by any means. She was very plain looking. She was also, I think, 58. But she was a very young 58, and she was just so damn honest, so at peace with herself, so healthy and full of life and fun, so passionate about her hobbies, that I had to admit to myself that I would rather spend an evening hanging out with her, than her physically hot daughter, who was around thirty.

On the flip side, most of the women I've dated in the past six years were in their mid-twenties (the youngest was 21, the oldest was 32, with most about 26). All but one were full-on smokeshows. But despite them being smokeshows, I only really felt "attracted" to a couple. One I dated for a while, but then broke up with once I realized there was no future. The other moved away to college, met some guy, and is now married. I later met a hottie as nuts as I was (she's 29), and we've been nearly inseparable now for a year.

What is the point? Well, there's a few. One is that there is an element of mystery to attraction and compatibility. It does not necessarily correlate with age, or even physical beauty.

But more importantly, I submit that, especially as ex-Mormons, we should refrain from negatively judging men and women who have found happiness together. Some people in particular seem very upset by couples fitting the older man-younger woman model, and are very free with insults like "creep" and "perv".

But different people find happiness in different ways. Different people have different needs, and different preferences, and who is to say that any one is right or wrong? Where two people find happiness together, regardless of age gap, culture or race difference, sexual orientation, or anything else, I think we ought to celebrate that - especially as ex-Mormons.

Just my two cents.

Or maybe your several cents . .

Great post here!

> On the flip side, most of the women I've dated in
> the past six years were in their mid-twenties (the
> youngest was 21, the oldest was 32, with most
> about 26).

Did you even consider dating someone closer to your own age?

Sounds like a sick ego trip for some men to see if they can get a girl as young as their own children.

Joseph Smith was only 22 years older than Helen Mar Kimball. They must have really hit it off.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 08:36PM by braindead.

Tal, justifying being attracted to younger women really isn't necessary. Men and a few really hot or really rich women have been hooking up with younger mates since time began. This is not a Mormon issue accept that JS and the gang found a new way to do it without kicking the first wife to the curb.

I'm a sixty-seven year old female and I definitely find men younger than myself more attractive than the guys my age. Which is fine, because the guys my age are looking at the women your age.

If two people manage to find each other mutually attractive, I think they should go for it regardless of the age gap. They just shouldn't worry or whine about what other people think.

although I'm sure glad my boyfriend thinks I'm just fine at 57 and he is 61. I assume he could date younger chicks, I actually always liked older men, but never did date any as a young 20 something year old. Not like I didn't have the chance. One who was 34 pursued me for quite a while. I was 21. I thought it was creepy that he was chasing me. He was not bad looking and had an excellent job.

But what happens when the person in their 20s grows up? I thought that when Billy Joel married a 23-year-old. Did that last? If I were a man I also sure wouldn't want to be starting over on a new family at even age 45.

I think age differences are okay within reason, but . . .

My dad was 16 and 1/2 years older than my mom. She told me that the only problem was integrating with his circle of friends, who were his age. I know a lot of women who like younger men. I think it's a matter of individual taste.

My father was 10 years older than my mother. He also died and left her a widow many years ago. She is still alive but says that that was the hardest thing for her to go through.

I get that. My mom was in her mid 40s when my dad died. It devastated her. That is a tough time to lose your life partner. Earlier than normal widowhood is something that must be taken into consideration.

My late husband was 18 years older than me and left me widowed at 40. We were crazy about each other and other couples always commented on how we made them believe in "true love"

Unfortunately, I put on weight in my grief and (evidently) am no longer considered a "smokeshow" so I guess I can look forward to a future of spinsterhood.

Thanks, thread, for making me feel even less desirable than I already did.

Take heart, Pyewacket. My mom did not have a perfect figure in her widowhood, and she dated some interesting guys. Sometimes I wish that she had considered remarrying, because she could have. Some men actually favor intelligent conversation and good cooking. ;)

For almost all of my life (from the age of three, when my uncle--who was a film director--came into my life), I have been inside an industry where age gaps within "real" relationships (not the p.r. kind that evaporate when the p.r. value fades) is more the norm than not.

There are countless examples in Hollywood history, but the three that first come to mind are:

John Travolta owes his entire career to Diana Hyland (18 year age gap, who died a very untimely death in 1977...she became critical in constructing his career soon after they began their personal relationship---and if she had lived, he NEVER would have been trapped into Scientology!!!).

There is, of course, Charlie Chaplin and Oona O'Neill (36 year age gap; theirs was a very long marriage which produced eight children until he died).

And Juliet Mills (daughter of John Mills, sister of Hayley), and Maxwell Caulfield (18 year age gap), who have been married more than thirty-three years now.

These are all, for the most part, prominent actors, but this same dynamic is seen all over the entertainment industry (and all over the span of creative endeavors as well, whether it be music, dance, theatre, entertainment production...whatever; if it's creative--and often this is true for very highly intelligent people as well--there are going to be great and superlative relationships "everywhere" which have age gaps).

So I learned this one thing very well, starting when I was three:

A-L-L adults are the S-A-M-E age...

...because chronological age among adults has nothing to do with attraction, compatibility, longevity of the relationship, or deep, very long-lasting happiness.

Knowing this has served me very well throughout my life (and in both directions...all of the GOOD relationships I have ever had in my life have included age gaps).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 02:08AM by tevai.

I was always a bit jealous of Francesca Annis due to her long relationship with the much younger Ralph Fiennes. Good on her! ;)

Age-gap romances = high on the "ick" scale. Especially when one partner is old enough to be the biological parent of the other. I DO find it creepy, even though I'm not going to pass judgment -- if they're both genuinely happy, that's just great.

Since I'm not a man, I can only rely on what male friends tell me: most men want much younger women because they're "hot" (very thin, very toned, have big eyes, white teeth, and perky boobs -- and no wrinkles!). This boils down to pretty much lust and ego. Men go after these women because they *can.*

Sure, the man is "in love" -- why wouldn't he be? She's HOT, dammit! It's also very easy to attribute charm, charisma, intelligence, competence, wit, goodness, and other positive traits to a person who is beautiful. That's what we tend to do (and there are many behavioral studies to attest to it).

I know zero women who've managed to find happy relationships with men any more than two or three years younger than they are (and even those with the small age gap are rare).

Sadly, American culture perpetuates the "cougar" trope: Barbie's mother or grandma, sexually voracious, who plays with younger male "cubs" (who get lots of torrid sex with no strings attached), in order to feel validated and attractive -- while the men in her own age bracket ignore her, because everyone knows there's no such thing as long-term relationship potential with a woman over that "certain age," right?

On the other hand, men who manage to snag wives/girlfriends young enough to be their daughters receive social praise and approbation.

I'm glad someone knows some women who've found happiness with younger guys. Where I live it just. doesn't. happen.

If you were honest, Tal, would you have actually moved forward with a relationship with either of the 50+ women you met (hypothetically, of course, since one was married)? I'm guessing the answer would be "No." You seem to prefer much younger women (like most 40 and 50-something American males).

If you and your 29-year-old are soul mates or whatever, and thrilled with each other, that's cool. Just be aware that some people will always think it's creepy and you're not going to change their minds. You don't have to justify your choices; you just have to not care what other people think.

I am 8 years older than my fiance. By the time he graduated high school, I had 3 kids! But, now, it doesn't really seem to matter our age difference. The only thing I am a little nervous about is that I am retiring this year and he still has 8 years till he can.

:-)

some of you gals crack me up...

you make it sound like if a guy is with a younger women he must have pulled one over on her somehow - to 'snag' implies cheating...

the reality is that (admittedly a small minority, but still...) some of these younger women just prefer their men at least a decade older than themselves

and they aren't shy about it

so what's a guy to do? i would much rather date a fun woman in her young 20s than a demanding woman in her late 30s - even if they were equally 'hot' - so no, it's not all about 'lust'

My 29 year old daughter went through a stage in her early 20s when she dated men 10 to 15 years older. They were more mature mentally and financially than the men her own age. At some point, however, she realized that these men were just old, and often had baggage such as ex-wives, children, and never-ending alimony and child support payments. She also felt like she was just an accessory for these men to add to their already established lives. She wanted someone that she could build a life with, and grow old together. She is now dating a dynamic man that is three years younger.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 10:09PM by braindead.

To "snag" means to catch or capture. It has nothing to do with cheating.

Maybe the younger women are attracted to an older man's wealth, status, possessions, or career, especially if he's putting on an Alpha Male display to impress her or keep her entranced (so she doesn't pay attention to men her own age who might be much better-looking, more energetic, better in bed, or with whom she might have more commonalities and shared culture).

"display to impress her or keep her entranced"

again, you're implying that's it's some kind of nefarious trickery (entranced!) done by the man and not a mutual attraction

if you think that women actually fall for that stuff then you must have a very low opinion of women

<again, you're implying that's it's some kind of nefarious trickery (entranced!) done by the man and not a mutual attraction

if you think that women actually fall for that stuff then you must have a very low opinion of women>

http://thesaurus.com/browse/entranced

"Entranced" can mean enchanted, enraptured, captivated, enthralled, and fascinated. Neither the OED nor any thesaurus I've consulted makes any reference whatever to nefarious trickery, evil-doing, or even bad intentions. It sounds like you are reading your own meanings into words and then using your personal interpretation as an argument.

I AM a woman. I don't have a low opinion of women. I have, however, seen several of my friends, gay men, and other women fall for "that stuff," as you call it. Most people, I think, are susceptible to attention, gifts, wooing, wining and dining, and the perks that come with a partner who has status, money, power, or a good career.

"I AM a woman"

i know - your "ick" comment above gave that away

I married a guy 12 years older than me (30,42). It lasted three months... There were a ton of other issues why it didn't last. For starters, he actually acted like he was about 17.

I dated a guy eight years younger than me (28,20) and he seemed mature for his age. But, I broke it off after he said he was about to get a large Harry Potter tattoo on his forearm (seriously? how are you going to feel about that when you're 50?)

I think age differences work with some couples, based on their mental maturity. Age is just a number, but I don't think mental age is just a number. With most people, I don't think age differences should be advisable.

Age doesn't matter in a relationship if the partners are compatible and of a similar maturity level. My husband is 10 years younger than I and we have a wonderful marriage of over 15 years. He truly is my best friend and partner in everything I do. Our age difference does get to me sometimes especially around birthday time, but my husband truly doesn't care. It does help that most people think we are the same age. I don't consider myself a cougar or a cradle robber, and I would be highly insulted not only for myself but also my husband and children if I were to be accused of either.

I am in my 50s and have had two girlfriends in their late 30s, both very attractive. While I knew that both of them loved me to some degree--I always felt I was a compromise, in the sense that they both could find a man more attractive than me, or even richer but I somehow provided that something that was missing in their lives. The two women had the more power in the relationship because they both knew at least physically they could do better than me. One even told me that out right. "If a just wanted a good-looking man I would not have chosen you." They other I caught making out with a young German guy that was visiting. In unequal relationships that is a sense of insecurity that does not exist when you pair up with someone close to your age. Right now I am with a woman very close to my age, and there is a level of trust, mutual respect and even physical attraction that I never found with the "eye candy". By choice I am with an older woman and I am very secure and happy in the choice.

I have been pursed by younger men, but I turned them down. One was 26 to my 35, but my mother had just died and I didn't think he could relate to my grief.

When I was 40 I worked at an office where everyone was under 30, I loved it, their problems were so simple compared to mine and my friends (aging parents, middle age health issues, dead end jobs and marriage, teen age children, etc.)

One coworker thought I was about 35, when I was 48. He was 28. I played along for a while but when I finally told him my age he sort of freaked out. I was probably a few years younger than his parents. He used to pursue women online by writing soft porn so he might have been fun in bed, but I couldn't deceive him.

When I was 35 I had a 21 year old who thought I was jail bait. I was spending time with my 16 year old god daughter helping her to sew a costume. I used to look quite young and he assumed I was her friend and was moaning to my godson that I was underage. My godson had a good laugh at that. Even after he knew my age he would blush when I spoke to him, it was rather sweet.

But then menopause hit and now I look my age. It sucked to age nearly 20 years in 4 years.

Ok, but then there was the time I dated someone 27 years older. I was 32 and he was 59. I was his "get over the last divorce and have great sex woman", but then he cheated on me with the older woman that he married. He stood me up for new year's on the first Xmas after my mother died. Bastard. He was only married for 6 years before he died of cancer.

The older I get the more I appreciate having a common cultural point of reference. It is nice to relate to someone who lived the same history instead of having to explain it.

I can't help but think of one of my favorite talented SNL comedian actors Phil Hartman. He commented once on a talk show that he finally married a "bombshell" wife--a younger beautiful blonde model.
Who happened to murder him!!! Now that was love! But in retrospect he did get his trophy wife and I am sure it was a beautiful wedding.

And Paul McCartney what the hell was he thinking when he married that heather Mills chick? Jesus. Was that love or grief? It was stupidity.

Yet on a personal note I have a 19 year old daughter who dated a 25 year old guy (not a mormon--then a mormon--then a wanna be temple mormon) who ended up being a total dick head. It was a horrible experience for her but she learned a difficult lesson-- DO NOT EVER trust a mormon.

I want to line her up with a 30 yr old never-gonna-be-a mormon but my 25 year old daughter said that is a creepy age difference. I don't think it is because in utah it is difficult to find good non-mormon guys for girls to date.

Anyway, congratulations on your success in moving on.

My husband was eight and a third years older. We were very involved in Mormonism. I was a new convert, turned 21 a month after we married. It seemed to me he was always 10 years older than me. I married an adult with a driving force to complete his education and become an electrical engineer.

We were very different people in many areas; he was BIC, I was a young convert, personalities -- opposites, interests, education,careers, work, and interests in hobbies, etc. all very different. I used to say: together we made one brain as one was more right brained and the other more left brained!

I left the LDS Church at around the 36 + year mark and because of integrity and ethics (something we both had in common) he and I worked (work being the operative word) through it resulting in an agreement: "agree to disagree."

After he died, last year a little after our 50th wedding anniversary party, one of my adult children, some months later commented: "you always knew you would outlive him." I replied that statistics said so but there was no guarantee. Yes, I think I had a strong suspicion that I would outlive him.

I learned something about love at a young age: "Love is something you do." We both come from very English culture backgrounds with a strong sense of commitment and the value of investment in our relationship and partnership and family etc.

It worked because of an ability to adjust to huge changes in our lives and in our partnership. The difference in our ages was not a factor.

It's a beautiful thing when two people find they have a relationship that works for both of them, that they can sustain through all kinds of problems. I say: Let It Be.
(The song is running in my mind!) "Whisper words of wisdom, let it be."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 11:41PM by SusieQ#1.

Men are able to pass their genes on indefinitely, assuming certain apparatuses are doing their thing. It follows that some older men would like to partner up with a younger woman who can have children and is healthy enough to take care of them even if the man has no interest in having children. A woman of childbearing age is more likely to look for a man who is healthy and exhibits signs of not only making healthy children but of caring for them, too, even if she has no desire to have children. Many variables factor into what someone finds attractive, but at the end of the day, a lot boils down to "Will I have healthy children with this person, and will this person care for them?"

I'm 47. I have one son, and I'm done. I have a 30-year-old neighbor who started hitting on me today. He's attractive, and 15 years ago, I'd be down like a clown. But I'm 47. He's 30. I have no desire to hook up with him. I enjoy talking to him, because it makes me feel like I'm not dead, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be some MILF.

I had way too many older men creep me when I was younger - men who saw me grow up. It was disgusting. They had been attracted to my mother when I was younger, and when I hit 19... Just ewww.

I never wanted to get married. I never expected to get married. I'm not the marrying type. I'm not the soul mate type. I'm the How Interesting Are You? type. And eventually people stop being interesting, including me.

I'm trying to decide if I'm okay with growing old alone.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 12:16AM by Beth.

My husband is 13 years older than me. We've had our ups and downs, but I would say that overall we have a pretty solid relationship. we've been together for 8 years. I never intended on falling in love with someone that much older than me. In fact, it made things harder for both of us- we had a lot of trouble with our families/friends accepting our relationship. I've always been much more mature than guys my age and my husband has always had the energy of a much younger man.
After all the judgement I've experienced from my relationship, I just try to let people love who they love.

To Tal, et all.

I can simpithise with the 40 yr old virgin.

I am one.

We all come into this world, wet, cold & screaming. We all leave feet first.

What happens, should be * fun*.

To all, don't be * so* judgey / bitchy.

Age,,, shouldn't matter.

I'm old enough to be my * partners* father?

What the bleep does it matter to you?

Shouldn't we just all have a good time?

For y'all, yellow / missing teeth, is just a freakin fact of life, for some of us.

To discount us, as human being, is, is ,,,,is just

* SO* judgey / bitchy!!!!!!!!!!

Some of *US*, just can NOT afford dentists!

MONEY,,, MONEY,,,,GREED.......

My *happiness*,,,,is based upon,,,,,your greed.

This may, just be the definition of greed.

Or Moronism?

This is my experience...YMMV.

My husband was a mere 4 years older than me, but it might as well have been 14. He was the fifties, I was the sixties. He was doo-wop, I was sex, drugs and rock and roll. We stuck it out for 22 years and four kids, but I often felt he was from a different generation. Ironically enough, his girlfriend is 17 years younger. Go figure.

When we divorced, I went to work for a woman whose husband was ten years older than she. When they married in their forties and fifties, those ten years didn't seem like much, but when he was well into his seventies, the medical problems were mounting. She was in her sixties and going strong in her business and she had to take care of this elderly, diabetic guy who was sick a lot. It really hit home to me how much difference ten years can make. He got older and sicker and died a few years ago at age 79.

I have thought about this often. I'm not the nursing type. I don't want to take care of somebody in their elderly years. I don't want to have to monitor meds or spend my days taking somebody to doctor's appointments like my boss did. I don't want an old guy who wets his pants and needs Depends but refuses because he's too proud, so he smells like piss all the time. I know this sounds harsh and I apologize if it comes across as bitchy, but that's how I feel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2014 01:37AM by DebbiePA.

Makes me remember a 60 yr old patient who ask if I could set her up. She said of the guys she met: "all they want is a purse or a nurse!"

You give me hope!