I was recently reading about the theologian Thomas Merton in Wikipedia and ran across this:

"In January 1938 Merton graduated from Columbia with a B.A. in English. After graduation he continued at Columbia, doing graduate work in English. In June, a friend, Seymour Freedgood, arranged a meeting with Mahanambrata Brahmachari, a Hindu monk in New York visiting from the University of Chicago. Merton was very impressed by the man, seeing that he was profoundly centered in God, and expected him to recommend his beliefs and religion to them in some manner. Instead, Brahmachari recommended that they reconnect with their own spiritual roots and traditions. He suggested Merton read The Confessions of Augustine and The Imitation of Christ. Although Merton was surprised to hear the monk recommending Catholic books, he read them both. He also started to pray again regularly."

I found this remarkable for a couple reasons. One, imagine a Mormon GA telling a Hindu thinking about converting to Mormonism that he should reconnect with his own roots. This man was confident in his own spiritual experience and recognized that other beliefs were not a threat. The validity and value of his religion did not depend on converting others. And doesn't this also display true faith in the ultimate goodness of God? That the result is what matters, not the process?

Secondly, this made immediate sense to me. Isn’t it better to save what is good, and move on from there, rather than ditch everything and start over with something completely different?

For those of us who grew up in the church, our personal histories, memories, and experiences are forever tied to the church. It is and will be part of us. For some, parting from that and never referencing it again is possible, perhaps desirable. For others however, the church figured in defining their lives and is integrated into their beings. That should serve as a starting point, not an ending point. Afterall, I own my history and tradition.

TBMs often ask why ExMos cannot leave the church alone. Like high school, whether the experiences were good or bad, church life is something that for many people is a life-long reference and context for many other life experiences. Why should we abandon that? The church claimed a special role, and a special role it had. If TBMs think we should leave the church alone, they would have to admit that the church is inconsequential. The fact that many don’t want to leave the church alone is proof of how active and committed they were to the church, and what an important role it had in their lives.

This raises the question about who owns the church. Obviously, the church is a corporation, a legal and tangible entity. But as a social construction, the church is the members. For those who wish to remain active for the good they find in the church, why should they be ones to change, rather than church?

Traditionally, the church has always quickly acted to excommunicate any who threaten the central leadership and their control of the church. But as that model fails and the church struggles to maintain itself, perhaps the leaders should consider letting the members decide what the church will be and what it believes. GAs have observed that “the church is not a democracy.” But that equation works in the other direction too - Without democracy, the church is not.

Should the members take charge of the church? It is our heritage as much as anyone else's.

Another good opinion piece on this subject:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3781/why_i_won%E2%80%99t_leave_the_mormon_church_alone_/

My step son (TBM+) is currently attending Columbia.
It would be my hope that he would/could be so open minded.

Alas, the opposite is true. He has become more entrenched than ever. His arrogance and condescending attitude are appalling.

BYU was complicit in this situation. But in ways I cannot comprehend, his continued education at Columbia has turned him into the most arrogant, narcissist I've ever encountered. I had hoped his experience there would have the opposite effect.

Now he is a know it all with an Ivy league education. UGH.

I realize that many consider recovery to be never thinking or caring about mormon roots or in other words leaving it alone entirely.

But throughout my life I've felt a sadness at not having any real friends or much family to talk to about my early life. I couldn't go to reunions or reconnect to anyone from my youth because they were all mormons who saw their cult as the only important thing in their lives. They saw me as a turncoat and an enemy. That doesn't make for much love or pleasant conversation.

RfM fills the need in me of having roots.

I'm impressed with the diversity in the Jewish community. Generally Jews accept that other Jews still be Jews and have vastly different levels of religious belief and expression. They can be extremely orthodox or they can be atheist but they're all still considered to be Jews.

Mormons consider most of the world to be unworthy and this goes double for exmormons who are no longer contributing time, money, or allegence to the mormon cult agenda.

I don't object to exmos who want to be totally separated from mormonism and never think of it from one year to the next.

But it would also be comforting if there were allowances for those who want to come on this board and talk about it though they no longer want direct involvement in it. Some of us have no other heritage except the mormon one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 05:02AM by Cheryl.

I hate the MORmON church. My family knows this. I frequently give LDS conference talk sets to them for gifts. They find it comical. I plead with them to actually listen to the crap that their LDS leaders spew. They dont do it. Getting in touch with MORmONISM is a great way for person to realize they are not really a MORmON.

I respect MORmONISM and MORmONS, and leave them alone too, in the very same way I learned to respect other faiths as I was raised in MORmONISM, expected to go on a mission to condemn the hell out of others, and in the very same way LDS Inc leaves ppl alone as they constantly harass ppl on an industrial level.

MORmONS want to treat everybody else like MORmONS, but when they get treated like MORmONS they dont like it all.

STUPID ASS MORmONS!

No, of course not. Recovery, in my experience, is the process of removing the emotional attachment/bond to the beliefs, changing our World View and taking charge of our lives on our own terms. That includes, in many cases, living with and loving Mormons and learning to adjust to the changes on both sides. It's about changing our mind about our beliefs, rejecting the claims of the LDS CHurch and finding a way to navigate in the world we live in, keeping our self respect, self confidence etc. in tact.

For many -- they are BIC -- born into it: it's their heritage, culture, home, family, social system, support system, their traditions. For some, like myself, I was a Protestant convert with experiences in Spiritualism, as a young woman, and an adopted member of the tribe. (Patriarchal blessings give the member their tribe.)

Mormonism is part of our lives (for many) for many reasons. My view is to be respectful and honor everyone's rights to their beliefs whether we like them or not. In my experience, it's probably the best way to get along with our Mormon relatives and friends and loved ones. That means we will deal with Mormonism probably the rest of our lives in some cases. That's fine with me. I don't accept the claims or believe it, but I am certainly not going to denigrate my loved ones, for instance, because they do. I want to keep my relationships on positive ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 12:31PM by SusieQ#1.

It is difficult to "leave the church alone" when it was a central focus on the purpose of life for us ex-mormons. On top of that we were taught to memorize, read, pray, ponder, pray for a testimony, fast for it, cry for it, find a testimony at all costs!!!! Then we were taught to "proclaim it boldly to the world". Stand as a light and show others that they belong to the wrong churches that god himself told Joseph smith were "false and only built up for money"

Well.....that's a lot of difficult and twisted emotional and mental manipulation to go through for anyone. So, when people on this board who have had to suffer through leaving a cult like mormonism can't leave it behind I understand that!

Think about this....
People who were addicts (drug or otherwise) don't abandon others who have the same struggles....they often want to help other victims of addiction through AA or shelters.

People who were criminals don't abandon others held in the grips of desperation....they often become involved with communities that reach out and assist the victims of crime and the rehabilitated criminals.

People who were abused sexually dont turn their backs and leave those who are now being abused to suffer alone in silence....they often become humanitarian and social volunteers and workers to assist others who have become abused.

THIS ALSO APPLIES TO BEING ABUSED AND INDOCTRINATED INTO A CULT. People want to go back and help others because it helps them heal....and it helps others to see a different perspective and find a way to overcome the difficult situation that the organization/cult has put them into.

Of course there are many differing appproaches to doing this from the very subtle idea of keeping friends and being respectful to their beliefs in mormonism untill they ask questions.......all the way to the other end of the spectrum of actively asking questions to the victims to see if they can see a different way beside the "brainwashing and groupthink" that they have been programed to repeat.

My guess is that most people on this board fall somewhere into the spectrum of recovery where they are hopeful that others can see a way out of the web of mormonism. And I think it is valid to feel that way about mormons/mormonism and not leave it behind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 12:43PM by upsidedown.

Excellent thought provoking post.

I'm like Cheryl. I have no friends from my youth or family that I could reminisce with and rake over the good old days. Anyone from my past is all mormon all the time. I feel the sadness that she refers to. And yes, that will always be with me, but that is not "not being able to let go". It is very different.

Who do I talk to about the excruciating pain of being a mormon gay kid??? Do I chat about it with the Mormons who are at this very moment actively working to take away my rights? The same mormons that SusieQ1 asks us to respect??? If you respect the mormons you respect bigotry.

Who should the recovering women here chat with about the hell they went through? The same mormons who think they are disgusting because they want careers and knowledge and equality??? Yeah, let's respect those mormons!

Who does the recovered Indian talk to about the fact that he was told if he followed the precepts of the church he could become white??? What an insult! Which mormons do we respectfully discuss that with???

How about the men who's wives were encouraged by a bishop to divorce them?? What kind of person could possibly respect that bishop?

Yes, MarkJ, I couldn't agree more with your post. Your formative years will have an impact on you until the day you die. If you were under heavy mormon influence during those years, then that is part of it and goes with you as well until the day you die.

If you were hurt deeply by mormonism, you can smack it around, put it under a microscope, give it names, learn to laugh at it, and recover. But, in the end, it is part of your life experience, and as such will always be part of the composite of 'you'.


To say we cannot let go of mormonism is just asinine. We are not hanging on, we are putting it in its proper perspective. The more you examine it, the smaller it gets, hopefully just becoming what it deserves to be in the end--just a mild curiosity and good cocktail conversation.

MORE clairty:
People are mixing up what I am saying.

I can RESPECT and HONOR the RIGHTS to the thousands of religious beliefs in this world.

RIGHTS.... RIGHTS... we all want our RIGHTS respected and honored.

Now for more clarity:
I don't have any belief in the claims of any of them. Well, some universal truths are nice, but that's about it. What's not to like about Love One Another!! :-)

Understand the difference? OK?
I respect and honor RIGHTS to anyone's beliefs, religious or otherwise.

That has NOTHING to do with their actual beliefs. GET IT ?????

SuzizeQ1 What I hear you are saying is that you RESPECT the mormons for trying to stop me from having the same rights as you and your mormon husband.

You respect the mormon support of prop H8 because you RESPECT their religious rights?

If I have this right, you believe what the mormon church has done to gays, blacks, indians, women, men, and children is worthy of respect simply because it falls into some special category of culture and heritage?

Sorry, does not compute.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 01:33PM by blueorchid.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


You missed it again.

I support the RIGHT of anyone to have any belief they choose anywhere in the world. Religious or otherwise. That's my personal position. Support RIGHTS! Protect RIGHTS. (That's the general category without getting specific about any of them.)

Stick to that and you'll GET IT. So far, you missed it again.

SEPARATE the BELIEFS from the RIGHTS. That is what I do. Got it yet? It's soooooo important to do that, in my view. Their beliefs are about them, not me anyhow.

What I believe, specifically about anything in particular is mostly...well.... nobody else's business! :-) I have a very short-- Need to Know List -- that I share any specific beliefs, or my position with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2012 02:03PM by SusieQ#1.

The list is long and sordid, as is your Mormon belief system, in which you are clearly still firmly entrenched. Willful refusal to see beyond the Mormon way of doing things (your way) is not admirable.