This is the number one way women are kept second class. Religion does more to hurt women than anything I can think of. It is the base (pun intended) of society.

Men, try to imagine how that impacted us. Please get your daughters out of church.

Of course this post would come from you, Lilith. Ever since the days of Adam you spurned men....

Too obvious a joke...I know. I know. I just couldn't help it, given the name and the post.



In all seriousness though, I think growing up hearing deity is male is a non sequitur. I think it impacts some girls the way you say, but think there are worse ways women are impacted by western, patriarchal-based religion.

When they start out this way it is imbedded in them. This is what sets the stage for the abuses you speak of.

Referents have no teeth until other concepts are tied into them, as relations. But those logical ties are arbitrary. This means that one person can feel no sting, while another feels a twinge, and another feels it in full. But the associations are not the fault of the referents, themselves.

God and gender concepts are only problems when they are defined in those ways, and those are both arbitrary, inconsistent across culture and time; thusly, blanket statements about them cannot be made in good conscience--as with any other words, whose meanings shift in context and time.

There you have it, Lilith!

A man telling you about how your point affects girls and women.

The irony is hilarious but also sad that so many men simply do not get it.

Anyone claiming to understand someone just because of biology is on shaky ground. I acknowledge nuance, and while I agree some girls may be affected thusly, I disagree that all do, in all times, in all circumstances.

You essentially shut down Lilith's point and plea for men to imagine how growing up hearing that god is male might negatively affect girls and women. Instead of exploring the idea (or just listening and really hearing her point) you state: 'I think growing up hearing deity is male is a non sequitur.'

Then you state: 'while I agree some girls may be affected thusly, I disagree that all do, in all times, in all circumstances.'


Male opinions about the lived experiences of girls and women are fine but when you come-off sounding like a man thinking that he's more knowledgeable about the lived experiences of girls and women than the knowledge held by the girls and women who actually live and experience it, then expect to be called out on it. This ain't Mormonism.

She was speaking of religion in general--not just Mormonism.

I have explored her position and as I expressed, I disagreed. I agree god talk of him as male can and does affect females. I disagreed that hearing god is male while growing up is the number one reason women are kept second class.

The reasons they have been kept second class in our society precede any concept of god as male.

It's the foundation upon which every other rational for keeping them 2nd class exists.

Lilith and Bednar's Barber are correct.

When I was Mormon, the "male Deity" argument really bothered me.
Now I'm a pagan who worships both goddesses and gods; it's much more spiritually empowering.

I agree with you. It's the first and most basic way of making women feel "less than." I've thought that one of the more attractive aspects of Mormon theology is that it acknowledges a Heavenly Mother. But then it immediately slaps her down by refusing believers the ability to talk about her very much.

I agree. I always had a sick feeling with the way she was treated...maybe ignored is a better word.

And of course, they never had a scriptural justification for not allowing her to take her co-equal place.

I agree. Even in the most ideal circumstances, happy childhood, strong parents... there is a Heavenly Father that you pray to. Just my thoughts here, that idea of a Heavenly Father depletes the role that an Earthly Father has. Ideally, your earthly father is all you need... not a supreme being acting as "father". It might perpetuate, subconsciously or consciously, even the most ambitious girls, to go from father to husband because of men's protection/influence, whether needed or not. Maybe I'm just describing my life and feel disappointed about it.

Agree with you 100% Lilith.

Just finished reading Farwell To God by Charles Templeton. There was some really eye opening things in the book. One of the things that stuck with me the most was how unimportant women are in the bible. They are rarely mentioned and when they are mentioned they are not even important enough to have a name.

"Noah was married but his wife's name is not given. He had three married sons, Ham, Shem, and Japheth, but their wives are not named. Only eight people went into the ark...but we do not know the name of any of the women: they are merely the wives of the men. After the death of Noah the genealogy of his son's descendants is documented. Only sones are named. Every marriage is noted but never once is the bride named."

I've made that point before on this board, and was shut down with arguments from Believers who told me, "why, there's PLENTY of women in the Bible. PLENTY!"

I noticed that there are only a few who have specific names. Most of those are held up as negative role models. Don't be a Jezebel! Lot's Wife was so wicked, she's just Mrs. Lot -- doesn't even get her own name. Eve and that pesky snake. If the specifically named women aren't held up as evil, bad, and wicked -- as negative role models -- then all that is left is perfect, saintly Mary. And one or two others who are named specifically. I'm pretty sure this is where the Madonna/Whore complex comes from: You are either a pure, virtuous, loveable MOTHER, or you are a worthless whore. Those are your roles, ladies. Choose one and hope you choose wisely or you will end up a pillar of salt just like that one lady who was disobedient and looked back anyway.

> Men, try to imagine how that impacted us.

For those who have problems with this special imagination, the 'group therapy' parts of barbara walkers book 'equal rites' are a great help. they demonstrate quite clearly how damaging a male image of god is for the female psyche/mind.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R19U9Y6TT5EGOF/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1573927864&nodeID=283155&store=books

A careful reading of Genesis....as an adult made it clear to me, anyhow that there had to be male and female gods in this account of creation.

Genesis 1

26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Plural: let US make man in OUR image.. after OUR likeness .... our likeness, male and female.....

Elohim is single and plural.

That's how I read it ...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!
:-)

OOPS... forgot to finish my thought:

I grew up at a time when my mother -- racy and independent wore slacks in the 40's! I also knew that there was a "Glass Ceiling" however I didn't call it that. Men ruled the world, period. I wanted to go into the ministry and follow in the path of many of my relatives but all I could do in those days (late 50's) was be a Music Minister.

We've come a long way babe!! Now women do almost any job, some better than men! They learned to be proficient in the 40's when the men went off to war and the women worked the factories, etc.

It wasn't until I was grown, had children and realized there was more I wanted to do that I ran into the male dominated world -- everywhere: work, school, church, and everywhere else.

I don't think that we can really understand what it meant to be a man and be totally responsible for his family in every sense of the word. I didn't want that job!

I don't think a man would understand what it's like to be a mother either. They are fathers, you see, mostly imitating their fathers.

This is a different world from my youth. Very different. I have daughters that are what used to be male dominated fields. Could not have happened to me, except on a small level.

I don't think I will ever understand the mind of a man and I don't think a man will ever understand my mind as a female. We try to get close, try to figure it out.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 04:53PM by SusieQ#1.

You admit you were raised much differently than a man. Men and women could understand each other IF they were not raised TO separate roles. To say we will never understand is not to work towards understanding.

I think men's and women's behavior has come FROM being treated differently from birth. I don't think we would be all that different if raised equally.Even feminist teachers have been taped and SHOCKED to see how they treat the boys differently when they thought they were NOT. If feminists do this how much worse being raised where it is accepted that women have a secondary , supportive role?!

Growing up, the women in my home were often very negative toward men in general. I didn't seem to adopt that attitude.

Yes, boys and girls are almost always treated differently from birth. Also, they are different from birth. I'm fine with that. I have boys and girls that I gave birth to. They are also very different, unique individuals.

My point that I was trying to make is that there will always be some mystery to men and women that the other may not fully understand. I know I don't.

I never ever thought I was a secondary supportive role, but some tried to make me think I did in the LDS Church at times.
But I remember one of the prophets making a clear point in talk I attended one time, that it was an equal partnership. I never forgot that.

This morning I was specifically referring to what all Christian girls hear in Sunday School. I was not a Mormon and not nearly so sexist a church but STILL a little girl who hears "God, HE", all the time takes this IN. We have it drummed into us that God is a man and NOT like me. All the so-called "made in HIS image stuff is not so cool to a GIRL.

I am not talking about how yes, we can read this God as Spirit and Sofia and all as adults. I am talking about how the damage is done early on.

As for LDS having a mother god...BULSHIT> LDS has polygamous God with many helpmeets who pop out endless babies.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2014 08:03PM by ripplelake.

I'm currently taking a class on cultural anthropology. It is mentioned in the textbook that male-dominated societies have male gods. Female dominated societies have female goddesses. Co-dominant societies have both or aspects of both. Religion is a product of society, designed as a control to preserve certain aspects of that society.

We live in a male dominated society, as such we have a male god. It serves to make the men feel special and the women subservient.

If women feel less than men, the religion is doing its job. :(

Mormons aren't even allowed to talk about God's wife. Women with leadership skills are ranked beneath all 12 year-old boys. Like Steve Benson said: The church is a men's heir club.

It is my understanding that mainstream Christianity believes God is spirit and thus has no gender. He has both masculine and feminine qualities.

> It is my understanding that mainstream Christianity believes God is spirit and thus has no gender. He has both masculine and feminine qualities.

God is spirit and has no gender. So why "he has both ..." and not "she has both ..." ;-) ?

We don't have a gender neural pronoun in the English language.

Only Mormons think God has penis and a sex drive.

Not only is God a male. Jesus is. The Apostles are. Anyone who is anyone is male, except Mary, and she's venerated as a sympathetic, warm-heart, but without any power, except to intercede on behalf of the supplicant to those males who have got power. (Catholic)

Mormon is all-male power in the absolute sense. The prophets are male. The Prophet is male. Everyone and everything of any importance, whether human or deity, is male.

It's got an effect. I agree that if women feel disempowered, religion's doing its job. And if they still feel empowered, excommunicate them!

A part of the reason I stayed inactive after marrying a never-mo, is because I felt "useless" being another woman, not being able to really help (I guess there is Primary or RS activities to organize.) There is a definite feeling of being a burden as a single woman or single mom in the church.

1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

By calling God "Father," the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. ... We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman; he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard.

Might want to get your sons out as well, before they turn into misogynist dickweeds.

Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Might want to get your sons out as well, before
> they turn into misogynist dickweeds.


+1000

I am Lilith's husband, out of the cult because of her. Far too few men hearing and thinking about issues like this. If it were just a mormon issue could pass it off as the weird beliefs of a Utah cult. Lilith's a nevermo, grew up in same church I did. Mormonism takes it farther, but christianity did their best to root out any references to women as equal. Plenty already written here about that. You men listen, think about what she and other women have written here about this subject. It is actually a vital part of our recovery.