Disclaimer: I'm not personally opposed to gay marriage. I don't agree with the LDS view.

I wonder if the majority of those here who are for gay rights and marriage would be as upset at BKP and the church if they hadn't become politically motivated with the Prop 8.

That is, if they never got into the politics (or immediately got out now), didn't try to sway propositions or amendments, just kept to themselves their own beliefs, would that be a problem? If all they did was preach to their own membership that marriage is between a man and woman, that in the church, they will not recognize members' unions who have been married with a same sex partner, but only within the confines of their organization.

Would that be tolerable?

I'd still be angry--after all, I was counseled to marry someone gay to "save" him. I have been reading this week a bunch of blogspots of married gays and their wives. Most people think this isn't still happening. Are you kidding me? I think it is worse than when I got married 26 years ago.

Their whole stance on gays from as far back as I know of--has perpetuated PAIN.

Besides the obvious reason we're pissed off (the obvious reason being the content of Packer's talk), Packer's comment came in the midst of a rash of highly publicized gay youth suicides. Now, that being said, I don't think the number of gay youth suicides have increased dramatically from say, a year ago, but they are receiving a lot more media attention, which is a double-edged sword, and a rant for another post.

With regard to your question, the Morg absolutely put itself in the limelight with the whole Prop 8 thing, and yes, I think people are paying a lot more attention to what they are doing with regard to homosexuality. The speech would be horrific no matter when it was given, however, the timing of Packer's diatribe is causing a lot more backlash and attention because of the media coverage of these suicides.

So, that's my opinion, flawed as it may be.

But it wouldn't piss me off as much.

They really got me when they were changing Utah's constitution in about 2005. That affected everyone, not just their own.

Prop 8 got me more pissed also.

But to be clear, teaching it to millions who will hang on to their every word is evil enough. Taking their ability to swing elections and push their agenda just pisses me off more.

It is one thing to teach things that are unpopular and to stand by them.

It is quite another to teach things and claim you don't.

So, despite my opposition to the church getting involved in Prop8, that's what churches do.

The difference is, that the LDS church tried to pretend that it did not contribute huge amounts of money. The Catholic church didn't seem to be worried about people knowing what it was up to. The LDS church got fined for improper reporting and the other churches did not. Why? Becaus the other churches believe in being honest.

The NOM has tried unsuccessfully to hide its activities in Maine, not because of the influence of the Evangelicals and the Catholic churches, but the Mormons. They are the ones who are trying to remain unseen.

I am not Gay, and neither is my wife. But we do believe in being honest, and if a church refuses to be honest then it has no moral authority.

My issue isn't even so much with Packers words (although I disagree with them) but with the fact that they changed them in the wake of public outcry, and then tried to cry foul.

That summarizes a lot my issues. Years ago when gay marriage became a national topic, churches were worried they'd be forced to stop their free exercise and denied practicing their beliefs as they'd done in the past. The issue pits against each other the rights of two groups. But with all the dishonesty of the morg, I'm happy to side against them and for the rights of individuals over idiot religions. The Bible and churches used to advocate slavery too. It's time to welcome them to modern times.

As a straight guy I would still be upset. I feel that when anybody's rights are trampled on by an organized effort that it is a social issue, not specifically (in this case) a gay issue.

I think it was the part about it being possible to reverse w/ faith. I give them the right to their beliefs on it, but like I told my mom: You CAN'T use scientifically incorrect information and lies to teach something.

They can believe that rain is evil, but they can't say it's made from plastic instead of H2O. It is scientifically WRONG.

I hope that wasn't the worst analogy ever.

And I don't know if homosexual suicides have actually risen or if they're just being better reported. I don't think it really matters when you think of it because if they've always been this high it's still devestating.

I hate the pain religion causes.

as directed by the church. He has since come out of the closet.

After that despicable speech, his son will no longer speak to him.

I think that kind of family disruption is reprehensible from anyone, prop 8 or not.

doesn't make their racism any more tolerable. It's the principle of the matter-- the offensive, ignorant, bigoted worldviews and the poor children who get taught harmful BS by their ignorant, racist, homophobic parents.

Same goes for the church. By going public and political, they made themselves easier targets, but they're still wrong fundamentally and their homophobia and sexism are still every bit as offensive.

LDS can believe and teach what ever they want.

I do however have serious issues with LDS inc influencing the Prop 8 outcome by mobilizing the army of the faithful. Everyone has the right to speak. IMO though no one has the right to legislate another person's morals

I struggled with it for a long time. I could not understand why they would teach or even suggest that homosexuality was a choice; it was clear to me that it was not. I could not understand why, homosexuality not being a choice, they were not allowed to find someone they love and create a loving bond like every other adult. I could not understand why they couldn't get married and have sex together, why would god allow them to be born gay and then deprive them of a life companion? Of love? Of consummating that love? It seemed cruel.

When I left, I still continued to be angry with the church on this issue and watched them carefully. My frustration and anger with the way the church has acted has only grown on this issue since Prop 8.

However, even if they had not been involved in Prop 8, I would be outraged at BKP's speech. Pretending that homosexuality is a choice only furthers the emotional and psychological struggle homosexual, bi-sexual, and transgendered teens go through.

The LDS can keep believing things about gays all what they want. I don't care. I also tend to not care about adult gays that CHOOSE to remain LDS (their drug and poison of choice), however they set a very bad example to minors in their ranks who are confused and depressed.

It's when they DO meddle in politics and attempt to sway legislation with their ancient and wrong beliefs that I tend to sit up and furrow my brows. That isn't right.

The problem is, they DON'T keep their beliefs to themselves and it is IMPOSSIBLE to not have what they say effect everyone (in Utah). Prop 8 is just the tip of the iceberg. I live in UT, and there is no separation of church and state. The Morg speaks (in conference or elsewhere), and the legislature jumps to appease them. Until another 50-100 years from now when the Morg population in UT is less than 10%, whatever the Morg says effects EVERYONE in UT, Morg or never-Mo (which is what I am).

So your premise is IMPOSSIBLE (for UT). There is no keeping anything of the Morg within the confines of their religion. Whatever tail the Morg moves in conference immediately starts wagging the dog of the legislature, even if that means wasting taxpayer money in court on legislation that will be challenged (or that the state is currently challenging).

anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if the majority of those here who are for
> gay rights and marriage would be as upset at BKP
> and the church if they hadn't become politically
> motivated with the Prop 8.
>
> That is, if they never got into the politics (or
> immediately got out now), didn't try to sway
> propositions or amendments, just kept to
> themselves their own beliefs, would that be a
> problem? If all they did was preach to their own
> membership that marriage is between a man and
> woman, that in the church, they will not recognize
> members' unions who have been married with a same
> sex partner, but only within the confines of their
> organization.
>
> Would that be tolerable?

The extent to which they lead the battle against gay rights is the reason I choose to protest the LDS church over other groups that believe gay marriage is wrong but are not politically active.

I do object to their use of terms like "immoral" and "unnatural" because those are judgmental words used to condemn a whole class of people, thus words of prejudice. I stand against such prejudice.

And that seems reasonable.

Packer said things that will cause gay Mormons to hate themselves, and straight Mormons to judge them and avoid them. (Because if being gay is a choice, then many people conclude that gays recruit people to their "lifestyle"). Being told you can change something that you cannot will eventually lead gay people to misery, and perhaps even some to suicide.

Packer based his comments on his BIASES, PREJUDICES, and misguided BELIEFS, and he spoke them under the pretense of being one of God's authorized representatives (When we can't even prove that God EXISTS, that's really SOMETHING to claim to speak for HIM).

There is not room for justifying PREJUDICE and HATE in our society today, and I don't care whether it's the Mormon church or that Wacko Baptist group (Northsburo?).

Talkin hate hurts everyone. It's like throwin a rock in a pond, you know? You can't keep the ripples from spreadin and spreadin.

I was born Mormon.

It is kind of like a cultural thing verging on racial... almost like Judism. Most of my family and loved ones are entrenched in this belief system. I have to live and deal with being born Mormon although I have separated from the practice of the religion, because of the impact on those I love. Outrageous statements made by the church has an effect kind of like being a teenager who is easily embarrassed by their parents. I can't stand by and do nothing, allowing the evil deception thrive.

As far as the public nature of of Prop 8 goes... Oh you betcha! They opened that Pandora's box. They want to take it public the critisism is more public.

Packer's talk was so lame... "There are people who want to legalize sin".... Not the case. The church tried to illegalize what they call a sin. It is a sick, twisted, puffed up argument, baseless position to polarize their members against a common enemy so they can justify tithing.

My brother in law is gay. He has lived a life of rejection. His mother doesn't "tolerate" him. She calls him someone who has made "bad choices" who is a sinner.

He has all kinds of issues from being gay and dealing with it as a Mormon. His family who condemns him because that is what they learned at church made it worse.

So forget politics. I've seen first hand what they are doing when they "keep quiet" about it.

"Would you still hate Mormons if they just quietly practiced their bigotry instead of getting all in everybody's face with it?"

Answer:

"YES."

The Mormons look like a bunch of bigots to the rest of the world. It's amazing they can't see it. Look at how their treatment of African Americans still haunts the church today and keeps their conversion numbers down. They can refuse to give gays temple marriages, it is their religion. Gay marriage is already legal in many countries and nobody has forced them to marry them in the temple.

The young peope who are gay and have openly gay friends are running for the hills. Their stance and their political involvement has destroyed their credibility with 80% of the Mormons under 35. Thanks to old Boyd shooting his mouth off young people are seeing the church for what it really is; a hateful, judgmental group bent on controlling membership and destroying any familiy who doesn't meet their standard of perfection.

How do we deconflict free-speech, religious freedom and gay rights? Should people not be able to say that homosexuality is sin, that they refuse to allow members in their church practice it without organizational penalties? Should religion take a back-seat to gay rights? Would this alter the constitution (bill of rights)?

anon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do we deconflict free-speech, religious
> freedom and gay rights? Should people not be able
> to say that homosexuality is sin, that they refuse
> to allow members in their church practice it
> without organizational penalties? Should religion
> take a back-seat to gay rights? Would this alter
> the constitution (bill of rights)?


I've commented before that the "free speech" thingy ought to be re-thought, ought to be reconsidered seeing the way people have abused this right. The way we use it today is so far off base from its original intent centuries ago. If anyone said one racist word in public today, at least in the free world, they would almost automatically be socially condemned. Where exactly is the free speech there? Why should the individual be persecuted? Obviously b/c it tramples on others' rights.

Same story now with gay rights.

That being said, religions can go preach their own dogma and views to their own choirs, so to speak. The flip side to your question are other questions:
-Why aren't Catholic priests extolling celibacy to both men and women?
-Why aren't the Mormons suggesting we bring the sexy back with polygamy? Or say outright that being black is a curse from God?
-Why isn't Judaism actively converting?
-Why aren't the religious publicly outing and condemning adulterers and pushing for stricter legislation against them?

I was not involved with Prop 8 and neither am I gay. I can see that the church has a huge responsibility for how it's members connect with gay people in the world, and within their own ranks...... and it stinks.
there is no sympathy.... there is no common ground or logic
M K Jensen was weeping crocodile tears in Cali, just a few weeks ago and then BKP comes in with a real kicker that hits at the heart of every person struggling to accept themselves, basically saying 'God would not have made you this way, you are just choosing to be a pervert'.

It stinks.... It just one more thing about the church which stinks..... but it stinks



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2010 09:47AM by onceanelder.

Tolerable? Yes.

I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd respect their right to believe however they want. To be intolerant of them is to make me just as bad as they are.

The EGREGIOUS sin on the part of the church is forcing their beliefs on the rest of society through legislation.

Related examples:

Flat earth society. These folks can keep their bizarre beliefs to themselves. Nobody cares. People know the earth isn't flat...

Anti-vaccine crowd. These people are nuts. They believe vaccines cause autism, and that's just crazy. They do not protect their own children. But except for the expense to society of handling these sick kids, and the loss of life, there is little impact from this belief.

Creationists. This is an interesting group. I could not care less if they want to believe the earth is 6000 years old. However, I'm firmly against what has happened in Texas, where they've tried to shove the creation based textbooks into schools...where normally one would expect to be educated and not indoctrinated.

So, the anti-gay crowd. If they want to practice religion in an unhealthy way, let them do it in their own church. When someone does not wish to be subjugated to the church's bizarre beliefs about homosexuality, let there be a wall so that the church cannot push its influence beyond its members.

Actually, therre is a fundamental principle of mormon doctrine that is ignored in the gay debate. The church is actually promoting Satan's plan, by its own actions.

Mormonism says that there was a great council in heaven. During that council meeting, Jesus and Satan both had a powerpoint that they showed to elohim. Jesus' said, "Dad, we need to let people be free. They'll screw up, and I'll help them come back here if they choose to accept me." Satan said, "No way. They will all come back, and they won't have a choice."

God tossed Satan and his projector into outer darkness, along with everyone who followed his plan.

The ONLY DIFFERENCE IN THE PLAN WAS "FREE WILL."

So, now the church has said, "Gay marriage is evil. We will deny the free will for same sex individuals to marry."

So, the new temple movie script is written. "Today, the part of satan will be played by 15 old men who pretend to know the will of God. They will go down...and return and report, etc."

See?

So, yes, the main problem with the church's belief is that it contradicts the very foundation of Mormonism's gospel...that people are free to choose!

I would generally agree with unregistered bob above me (that the problem was getting involved in legislation.)

I think someone in PR figured no one would notice mormons advocating religious fundamentalism--despite the cultural notion that the constitution was written by the three nephites.