mormons pride themselves on believing that the typical christian/jesus/NT believing isnt enough to get into heaven. "obedience is the first law of heaven." (DC 130:20-21) you have to be obedient and repent when you do something wrong. THAT is how you get into heaven.

you cant be saved by faith alone. faith without works is dead.

if this is true, then there would be nothing hindering god in showing himself to everybody in the world. it wouldnt destroy his plan because everybody would still have to choose to be obedient. after all, that is how you get into heaven--by obeying god's commandments.

thus, the reason the mormon god doesnt show himself to the world is NOT because it would destroy his plan, but because he doesnt exist.

Being in the presence of God with full disclosure of his nature is not very compelling. It is easier to accept the war in heaven as myth because it doesnt make sense.

I have never said that to a TBM but I am kind of curious how they would respond. The story is quite manipulative and I expect they would feel compelled to defend their position of one of Gods chosen people rather than give it a moment of independent consideration.

I maintain if Gods truth was so precious he could have selected a more faithful and reliable source than Joseph Smith as his messanger. I will not hold God to lower standards than I have for myself.

taddlywog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Being in the presence of God with full disclosure
> of his nature is not very compelling. It is
> easier to accept the war in heaven as myth because
> it doesnt make sense.

the war in heaven story is a great supplement to what i am talking about, thanks =) the first choice we had to make was in the presence of god. the second choice is a blind one. makes absolutely no sense. one could say: but it is to teach us to live by faith.
me: why? what good is faith when god can actually talk to us? why would he want us to base decisions on emotions/feelings instead of knowledge/direct contact? what purpose will this serve us in the eternities? it wont because we will have our own magic stone that tells us everything--we will have perfect knowledge/understanding. FAITH! WHAT IT IS GOOD FOR? AB-SO-LUTE-LY NO-THING!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 06:13AM by Nick Humphrey.

The War in Heaven in Mormon thought is a past event. It closely mirrors the Book of Revelations, but there is only one problem-

It only works IF the Book of Revelation had been talking about future spiritual events instead of John assuring his fellow Christians that there was promise of God saving them and Israel from the Romans.

Unfortunately, Joseph Smith didn't have enough of a line of his own revelation to discern what most scholars already knew.

The War in Heaven according to the Mormons is a great tool for making them superior to their fellowman. According to gospel teachings no longer available, the most valiant and valuable ones were born White Americans, while those who were less valiant (desirable) and even partially rebellious were born with darker skins and in poorer conditions throughout the world.

Of course, this teaching didn't become popular except by those fool enough to accept the Book of Abraham as scipture, and those who were led astray by the theology emerging from Nauvoo. Thus, you'll find very little of it outside of the LDS and its spinoffs.

The whole premise of the creation of mankind, the story of Jesus presenting his plan to God rests on the notion that there's some semblance of choice in the pre-existence. They cling to the idea that the war in heaven was a war of ideas, of differing principles. However, this cannot be so, as there is nothing to tempt them or 'drive them from God.' They teach that "there must needs be opposition in all things" (2 Nephi), yet in the pre-existence all is perfect; except for their little missing body problem. Why start a war over differing opinion when the big man clearly made his choice, Jebus over Lucy?

He's right there, making the decisions, creating the earth, 'organizing the intelligences.' Why wouldn't they listen to the big man when he made his decision? Sorry Lucy, your plan didn't make the cut, Jebus, you're in. Now they fight over it? How can there be a war in heaven when all is nearly perfect and God lives next-door? It's the Plan of Nonsense, it sounds nice until you really pick it apart.

I agree with Greyfort, God is nothing but a projection of those who invented him/she/it. What kind of omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite entity/being would create a universe for the sole purpose of being worshiped? If there is a 'God,' it's not a man.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 09:51AM by Strykary.

The War in Heaven also gives you a current us-against-them mentality. You tell the members that the war hasn't ended. It has simply moved down here to Earth.

So you can't ever become weak and falter. I was told that in blessings. If you instill in people the idea that they're at war, they'll be ever vigilant to keep strong. They're good little warriors for the invisible god.

When I think about the god that man has created, it makes me really angry now. There was all this pressure put on us to please this guy. You've got this god who chooses to remain invisible, and yet demands that you not only have faith that he's there, but that you worship him. For the Mormon god, that includes doing a LOT of work for him.

And if you don't worship him, you'll be cast out for all of eternity. What kind of being like that would be worthy of worship? And then they call him loving?!

I think of how useless faith is in teaching my children. Why would I write a rule book about life and then go hide and only talk to one child directly.

God told me to tell you not to steal.
God told me to tell you not to drink coffee.
God told me to tell you that I live on Kolob.
God told me to tell you that you have to wear special underwear.

God told me to tell you that if you don't believe me that he will punish you.

I work with my children everyday face to face trying to teach them how to be happy and good. They still make bad decisions. What benefit would there be if I were invisible.