Aside from the obvious stuff like Devotionals and BYU Wards, is the school itself, meaning the classes and the college life comparable to other schools?

Fuck no! The Boner.

Not many other schools require an ecclesiastical endorsement and religious training to graduate.

They are forever coming close to losing accreditation due to academic freedom violations.

I refer to it as BYM. Brigham Young Monoversity. At BYM students are exposed to exactly one single world view. I will never forget my French literature class wherein after existential philosophy (Camus) was presented the grand conclusion was "isn't this a sad, sad way for some of HF's children to experience the world?"

Idiots.

I've never been a real religious go-getter, but I have to agree that Camus is scary. Reading "L'Etranger" was more terrifying to me than anything Stephen King ever wrote.

Being sentenced to die because he didn't cry at his mother's funeral. . .HAY-SOOS/! The randomness of that was SOOO creepy!

BYU's wrap-up was just a tad too saccharine though, thank you.

Okay, I know that sounds absurd, but I am curious. A hypothetical case: somebody likes a particular program or major (I understand their graphics and animation programs are pretty strong), and is willing (for whatever reason) to abide by the social & moral restrictions, and put up with the Mormonism in other courses and distribution requirements.

What does he do for a bishop's recommend? Would he be required to attend chapels and devotionals? Classes in theology and the BoM?

And no, I'm not planning on applying, and I wouldn't let my children, either!

I attended post-mission, graduating in summer of '70. I lived off-campus, which does make it a bit more palatable. At that time the bishop's endorsement didn't exist.

From what I understand, the endorsement plan is subject to what all the other happy mormon horseshit is subject to, the personality of your bishop. Ghawd forbid you have one who thinks he has the power of discernment. What one bishop would consider innocuous behavior, another bishop could judge as worthy of disfellowshipping. It's the usual crapshoot.

But luckily, there's a pretty good rule to live by: lie when necessary and never take naked selfies.

BYU is suffocating; I spent 5 years there. If you don't follow the hive-mind mentality, you will be either kicked out of school or just plain miserable while studying. The honor code is the gestapo; they don't need proof of misconduct to dish out "justice" to students; all it takes is a rumor and BAM you're done. Stay far, far away.

I did undergrad at BYU, BA 77. It is a worthless education unless your diving deep into fanatical smormonism. Academically it is defunct and without any comparison, they lie about everything relating to the real world. They produce robots not thinking people. Their motto that the world is our campus is the biggest lie unless you consider that they field a IBM like cadre of missionaries blinded by mind control sent out on their own dime to convert people to the fictional account of the BM..they produce more con artists than any other college or university, because they see the world in a bicameral setting, members and gentiles..

I was an idiot to go to school there, people are aggressive if challenged about their hideous belief...what was i thinking??

Not at all!!!!! They only teach mythological economics at that place and I was shocked when I moved on in graduate studies that demand side economics was based on reality.

I'm sure that the political science, sociology, psychology schools teach similar mythology. YBU is only there to prop up fascist/feudalist mythologies that the brainwashed crowd will allow.

I think the biggest difference is that in other schools, you would be treated as an adult. You would decide where you want to live, how you want to live, and how you want to dress.

You want to live in a coed dorm? The school will sign you right up. Live off campus in an apartment of your choice? No problem. Have a lover overnight or a roommate of the opposite sex? Not the school's concern. Join a fraternity or a sorority? Have fun while doing so. Imbibe adult beverages? Campus police will likely not be overly concerned. Drink coffee or tea? The campus food concessions will happily keep you energized. Wear short-shorts or a tank top? Feel free. Paint your hair purple, shave it in Mohawk, or wear dreadlocks? No problem. Espouse whatever views you care to? Unless it involves terrorism or mayhem, you're good to go. Practice your religion without interference, or sleep in on Sundays? Your choice.

There is also value in attending classes with people who see the world differently than you do. While this would happen to a certain extent at BYU, it would happen to a much greater extent almost anywhere else.

There are endless reasons to avoid BYU.

Remember, though, if you make it to graduation, you'll have to put those three letters on your resume, and professional alumni networking will only help if you are headed for work in the CIA/FBI.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2014 10:00AM by csuprovograd.

BYU is a liability when non-Mo employers see it on your resume. The perception I've seen of it is always negative, like it's more of a religious school than a real one and has substandard education. Plus it marks you as one of "those cultists." I've been in a number of first rounds for hiring in high-tech and also economics and the BYUers are always discarded. Prejudice or based on reality? Doesn't matter, they're less likely to get the job unless it's a Mormon company.

I work in tech, and recently I decided not to talk to a recruiter because of her BYU degree and TBM credentials. I didn't think I could contain myself.

Going to a university is the time that you are finally an adult. It is the time you explore the most, open your mind to any and all that is new. Nothing is off limits. You study and learn like an adult in a no holds barred way that feeds your curiosity. This is when you spread your wings the widest and take a bite out of a concentrated world that is all about finding your direction to soar and jumpstarting your life.

What is higher learning if it is not a no holds barred pursuit of truth?

Does this sound like BYU? They will clip your wings so fast you won't even know you had any. It is stunting. And until they fix the sign at the entrance to say, "The Campus is our World" the sign that says "The World is our Campus" is just one more Mormon lie.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2014 12:03PM by blueorchid.

Absolutely not!

It is better called a Seminary. By definition it exists for the betterment of Mormonism. The One True Church.

By definition a Universiety welcomes a diversity of community and thought in order to PROMOTE discussion, debate, dissent in order to allow the individual to develop the ability to
Think and come to their own self through a personal journey using a proven process of exploration and validation.

I would say no. I'm a professor in the sciences and I would never take a grad student from BYU. I wouldn't be able to trust their basic scientific foundation and I'd be permanently concerned about their judgement. So no, I wouldn't say it is like other universities.

Yeah, it's like Oral Roberts University, Bob Jones University, Liberty University and all the other religion-based schools out there.

Stray Mutt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, it's like Oral Roberts University, Bob Jones
> University, Liberty University and all the other
> religion-based schools out there.


That's certainly the perception in scientific, academic circles. BYU just isn't a strong research university compared to other universities of similar size. BYU lacks comparative research facilities, dollars, expertise, and graduate programs in scientific disciplines. Students at other universities have greater opportunities to enhance their studies. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get a decent undergraduate education at BYU. Just don't think you're at some prestigious school that automatically impresses outsiders.

Is it like other schools? No! But it wasn't terrible. I spent two years there and only had to take one religion class. A hard-science degree was great. Wonderful kind profs who really are invested in teaching. Much better than other unis where I got grad degrees from- where the profs only care about their own research and can't be bothered to actually teach. I have a lot of respects for some of the BYU faculty. Not all, but there are really some great scientists there. I never really got involved in the school social scene, a never had any bad experiences. It can be what you want to make of it. There are plants of cool, less judgmental people to hang with hiding out there-- I was one. Life is your attitude. I wasn't forced to go to church much either while there. I hot sac meeting maybe twice a month and that was it and never had a calling. I'm pretty good at flying under the radar. I have no regrets.

When everything is based on the preconceived conclusion that "the church is true" then the whole claim of academia is questioned there.

If you learn making everything fit your conclusion, that defeats the purpose of what a true education is supposed to accomplish. A good university education leads you to form conclusions based on what you learn, not the other way around.

Another issue that makes it different in a negative way is the control and intrusion into the personal lives of the students: BYU approved housing, the tattling, the dietary rules, the church attendance requirement, the rules about sex, etc. In other universities, students learn from and experience many things from their personal lives that should not be part of the university agenda. It makes the person have to adjust even more if they ever leave the Mormon environment.

Another huge difference is the waste of time and BS college credit for religion classes at BYU. When I think of how much time I spent studying D&C, BoM, etc. I realize that time detracted from my true academic endeavors. I felt guilty studying on Sunday. I spent time on religious crap during the week. This time should have been spent being better prepared for my job (sciences).

You learn sloppy standards when academics cross with religious practices. For example, preparing things for church are filled with plagiarism, sloppy research and no references (for example see the church "essays"). I observed this carry over into the way some class work was performed.

I was there when they censored Rodin's The Kiss. Imagine the inadequate view of art a person would have from this kind of environment.

My biggest regret at BYU is that I didn't study things if they didn't seem to support the faith. I didn't have the curiosity I have now. It took me a lot of study after college to get a better rounded view of art, literature, philosophy and science. You don't realize what you missed if you lived in the Mormon bubble. I tended to drift into "god did it" and magical thinking to fill in any question I had.

They take up so much time with religious trivia. It's what you DIDN'T learn during that precious time that is the biggest cost and risk.

I read lots of comments here about BYU from people who probably went there decades ago... Since everyone told you the bad already (and I agree with most of it), I will tell you some of the good. As someone who just graduated, here's my perception:

- BYU has great programs in business and social sciences, and religion has little place in the classroom in the majority of cases. As a social science grad, I had professors who were very liberal, and others who you could tell were more conservative. But in reality, besides the eventual prayers before class started, I heard very little church topics in my major classes.

- I hear people say that BYU on a resume is detrimental. I find that blatantly wrong when it comes to business and most social sciences (when it comes to hard sciences, I have no idea). There are so many top-notch firms recruiting at BYU that I felt overwhelmed at how many interviews I had. A list of these firms includes all the big 4 accounting firms, all the big 3 consultancy firms, Goldman Sachs, Adobe, Apple, Google, Amazon, and a bunch of other big firms. I talk to my friends at the U and they say the recruiting there is not nearly as strong as at BYU. BYU is seem as a lot of companies as a national, and not regional university. Companies from all over the US come to hire students. I was one of them.

- BYU is an undergrad institution -- and that's that. I hear that our grad programs are not good.

- The honor code exists, and every year you need to interview with your bishop for an endorsement. However, due to the high volume of requests, most of these interviews are just 5-minute check-ups. Nothing really serious; the bishop basically signs it on the spot.

- There's no BYU KGB. I've accessed exmormon.org using the university's computers MANY TIMES and have never received an e-mail about it. The only time you might really see the "honor code" being shoved down your throat is when you try to take a test and they won't let you because of how you are dressing, of because you did not shave. BYU has over 30 thousand students, and they simply can't enforce that code.

- I studied at BYU for over two years without believing, and while breaking every single lds church commandment. I can count on one hand how many times I was annoyed at a retarded TBM comment a professor or student made. Things were just normal for me. No big deal.

- BYU students are very competitive and curves are pretty high. Kids just want the best offers so they work hard for it. I think there's a lot of the mormon mentality of being perfect at everything. But in the end, it helps keep the academic standard high.

- I HATED every religion class, even when I believed. If anyone is going to BYU, take them online through independent studies. A piece of cake and none of the crap.

- If I had to do it again, I probably would chose BYU if I had to chose an university in Utah for my undegrad. Even not believing in any of the BS, even having to lie to get my endorsement. I really got an amazing undergrad education for basically no money. I paid 1200 a semester after scholarships for good grades, and I got an offer for 70k (adjusted for Utah's cost of living) right after college.

After re-reading my post, I wait for the first person to suggest that I might be a BYU spy on this website because I said I accessed exmormon.org from school computers. I've heard that before. I'm not saying anyone should do it -- if you are there, you better not try. But I did, at least a dozen times, and never had a single problem.

justgradbyu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> - There's no BYU KGB. I've accessed exmormon.org
> using the university's computers MANY TIMES and
> have never received an e-mail about it. The only
> time you might really see the "honor code" being
> shoved down your throat is when you try to take a
> test and they won't let you because of how you are
> dressing, of because you did not shave. BYU has
> over 30 thousand students, and they simply can't
> enforce that code.


Dressing? Shaving?
The honor code is draconian. The fact that these things ate specified speaks volumes.

BYU is a liability outside the Moridor, and sometimes within it. When I see a BYU résumé I immediately $hit can it. Nobody wants to work with a religious nut.

I agree with you on all points. I graduated in the 90's and have a ms degree from an east coast school as a comparison. Even before my grad degree I got every job I ever applied for. BYU was a bargain! I paid around $500 per semesters after scholarships. Honestly, I only remember attending church regularly when I lived in the dorms. And I don't remember having to renew my ecclesiastical endorsement beyond my initial application. If I did, it was a non-issue. There is plenty of fun to be had. Just leave the campus and the problem is solved.

Outside the moridor, byu means one thing, CULT.

If it looks like the person was a missionary, all the worse. The conclusion is annoying cultist. In the washington dc area byu would be a detriment unless the person hiring was a morg. As a manager I would be afraid that someone born in utah and a graduate of byu would lack expose to the racial diversity found in a metropolian area.

I worked with RMs at the department of energy in maryland and several gave me morg literature which was completely inappropriate. One guy gave me a list of food I should have for the end of days. He was my age, early 30s but had 4 kids and seemed miserable. He just wanted someone to talk to.

No....I went from Ricks (BYU LITE) and it's stifling control freak atmosphere to Mount Royal College in Calgary. Wear what you want...grow your hair out...facial hair...smoke IN class...go out for beer after class...etc., etc., etc.

Ron Burr

Besides the religious classes, the professors of non-religious classes are told to have a "spiritual" element in their classes. Various professors have interpreted that differently. But you can see the pressure on them.

Slightly OT, pregnant 7 months and showed up to BYU ID for a sibling graduation. No problem running through campus, sunday morning with my tank an big bellie. Blushing, short, shorts..smiling and waving at all the church sheeples. Its funny, I didn't think twice about my sunday ritual (devout sunday runner of course). It was normal, and what i do. Had some bad stink eye from passerby's..sucks to be them right? Rexburg is a funny town..to say the least :-)

Take note with all of these answers, there is a strong (understandable) anti-BYU bias here.

First, just because WE would refuse to hire a BYU grad, does not mean that the world in general views BYU as a liability. Most people don't even know what it is, others assume it is just like some of the "religious" schools that only give a nod to their supporting institution. BYU can be a positive or a negative on your resume, just like any other school. An extremely biased sample of people on RfM does not demonstrate popular opinion on Mormon things.

Second, the social life at BYU blows and will be nowhere near other universities.

Finally, academically BYU is very hit and miss. The undergrad experience will be unfortunately marred by things like the religious classes, general ed classes riddled with Mormon think etc. The actual majors and graduate programs will depend heavily on how easily compartmentalized the program is from Mormonism. Some programs will be stellar, some will be so corrupted by the church as to be useless. So YMMV.

Also of note with grad programs, BYU tends to attract the less research motivated or more church research motivated professors. This makes it a less than ideal place to launch a career in academia. Other uses for graduate degrees wouldn't be terribly affected by this (I read the same research by the same top researchers in the field as my peers educated elsewhere have, but I was in a program that couldn't really be Mormonized).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2014 10:32AM by notnewatthisanymore.

I think BYU had a period of serious Gestapo-like policy enforcement as a rebound from the 60's era hippie movement. And of course, prior to that, we lived in a world where the social mores were just more similar to the lives that TBM mormons live now anyway. Antiquated and conservative to think about today, but for mormons, normal.

I think, now, like people have mentioned, it's not nearly as bad as it was 30 or 40 years ago. They do consistently rank last or near last in academic freedom, for obvious reasons, and having to take a BOM class if you're not even mormon seems absolutely ridiculous to me, but those are the choices you make. I think the biggest factor for many people- maybe not the majority, but a huge chunk- is the affordability factor. BYU is heavily subsidized by Tithes, and it's tuition is cheaper than any state school, even without a scholarship. It's really a pretty decent education when you consider the expense. If it were the average cost of a private school, That factor alone would make it not worth suffering through the honor code and lack of academic freedom and having to take mandatory religion classes.

I wouldn't go as I've said before, but I know people who went who are total jack-mormons and they didn't have a terrible time. People tend to get a 6th sense for feeling out other like-minded individuals in places where you and them are a minority; for example, a nonbelieving mormon at a mormon college. I knew plenty of people who managed to party when they were at BYU, you just have to not be stupid about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2015 12:34AM by midwestanon.