Joseph Smith was clearly a very sexual being. Which leads me to wonder if he was a little more creative than just doing it with a single partner. Considering that he had over 30 wives, and weren't two of them even teenage sisters? I wonder if he every had threesomes or orgies?

There's no way to know about Joe, but I've recently read reports that Warren Jeffs does these kinds of things. This came from a movie, so it might or might not be accurate. He did put a bridal bed in the CK room of his Texas temple.

He had the older wives hold down the newest bride at each corner on the marriage bed in the temple. The whole thing was audio recorded. Just sick.

I highly doubt it. There's been no evidence either from pro or "anti" sources that this happened. I'm sure he fantasized about it but I think he knew that would be too risky. I would imagine the women would be too traumatized if he proposed this and/or they would blow the whistle and complain.

I don't think king-size beds were available.

It is very possible that not all of Joseph's "plural marriages"
were consumated. Joseph had a libido but he also had an ego
and a following. The marriage to 14-year-old Helen Mar
Kimball, for example, was the idea of her father Heber C.
Kimball who wanted his family to be joined with JS's in the CK.

This, by the way, is why I don't classify JS as a pedophile.
We know of two 14-year-olds that he took as plural wives, and
the only one we know the details of the situation, it wasn't
JS's idea in the first place.

Having a lot of women "married" to you for eternity would have
a great effect on ones ego and on one's control over followers.

OF COURSE JS was sexual with many of his so-called "plural
wives." But I think there was more than sex involved in the
process.

As for threesomes, a TBM would say, "of course not," to which
I'd reply, "where's your proof?"

What is the source that proves HMK was her father's idea? JS often did such things to test his followers. Certainly Helen's mother did not support it. Again, what is the source and by that I mean an affidavit or something directly written and proven by someone involved.

HMK's journal, poetry she wrote. Letters to friends. Journals of friends who documented conversations with her.

Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if it was her father's or hers or her mothers or Elohim's idea.

She was FOURTEEN. Too young to make a decision like that and not her father's decision to make. If he married a FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD we have to assume he (a grown man) had sex with a 14-year-old.

That makes him a pedophile.

You ASSUME he had sex with her.

There are indications that he did, although nothing conclusive as
with some of his other plural wives.

Helen, herself, states that it was her father's idea to have
the two families joined in the hereafter, and that her father
approached JS with that request. It is entirely possible that
JS "married" Helen but didn't consumate the "marriage" waiting
for her to "develop" further (it's not like he had a dearth of
sex partners). He was killed not too long after the "marriage."

Helen took a lot of convincing and referred to herself as a
(sacrificial?) "ewe lamb."

As for the "pedophile" part, Helen was a couple of months short
of her 15th birthday and very probably post-pubescent. The
term "pedophile" applies to people who are sexually attracted
to pre-pubescent children. Joseph Smith took 33 wives that we
know of, TWO of whom were 14. Most were in the 18 - 30 year
range. Since he was teaching (albeit secretly) his followers
that this was a holy, eternal sacrament, it is entirely
reasonable that SOME of the "marriages" were not for sex
(although D&C 132 states that sex and procreation is the
reason).

Joseph was attracted to women between 17 and 30 He took a few
wives younger and even some older than he, himself was.

Joseph was definitely a sexual predator, but I think it's
stretching things to claim he was a pedophile.

I'm more interested in accuracy than maximum demonization.
There's enough that CAN be proven that we don't need to try to
assert gray areas.

In your 3rd and 5th paragraphs (the crux of your arguments) you offer speculation but no evidence that she wasn't pubescent or post-pubescent.

You may be right. He may not have had sex with a girl who had not reached puberty. However, in this case when a man marries a girl who could easily be pre-pubescent, I don't think it's out of line to assume sexual intercourse took place shortly after the marriage.

I don't think assuming a husband and wife have sex shortly after they marry is a stretch. I also don't think it's a stretch to assume a girl of 14 in 1843 (or thereabouts) had not yet reached puberty.

I also think that it's not out of line to assume that a man in his 40's attracted to a 17-year-old would also be attracted to a 14-year-old.

Joseph could also have told the Kimballs he'd marry her in 3 years--but he didn't.

I'm all for not demonizing either. But JS, Jr., has a long history of lying, conniving, manipulating and deviant sexual behavior. I think it's reasonable to err on the side of assuming Joseph's villainy in this case.

Yes to everything you've said.

MAYBE she was pre-pubescent.

MAYBE Joseph Smith had sex with her.

MAYBE Joseph Smith really suggested the whole thing to Heber
and Helen remembered it wrong.

What happens in a normal marriage doesn't necessarily apply to
what Joseph Smith was doing. For example a normal marriage is
public and the couple live together as man and wife--something
that didn't happen in Joseph Smiths "marriages" (I put it in
quotes because they weren't real marriages--just secret,
illegal affairs).

My point is that a pedophile is attracted to pre-pubescent
children. If the list of Joseph's "wives" had been filled with
11, 12 and 13 year olds that would be an indication. However
the ones used to label him a "pedophile" are only two in number
(out of 33), and the only one we have any details about seems
to not have been his idea and was possibly not consumated. I
think calling Joseph a pedophile is unwarranted by the evidence.

That he was a sexual predator, however, is clearly confirmed by
the evidence. I prefer not to make accusations that I can't
clearly back up.

Baura: You're right. It's going too far to state that JS, Jr was a pedophile (although he still may have been.)

I do believe he very likely had sex with her shortly after their marriage but your point that generally he was attracted to young women (rather than girls) indicates she was probably post-pubescent.

I'm guessing any wives he didn't have sex with were those who weren't like the majority of his wives (older.)

He had a lot of wives in their 20's. He was likely having sex with all of them.

Helen may have believed her father suggested it but that does not make it so. Joe didn't approach Helen but her father. What did Heber Kimball write? And his wife? Moreover, what Helen wrote was later.

I would have (as long as it was consensual and they were 18 or older)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2014 03:24PM by hangar18.

Makes one wonder if marriages were consummated in early Mo temples.

Are there any stories of early LDS having 3 ways? or did everyone sleep in their own bed? Did any wife ever do it with one of the others with out him?

I only ask because they are all married to each other more or less.

Always room for another Fanny.

+1 from the Boner--another Fannie here!

http://youtu.be/PLdX9ZH83CQ

Sung by Benny Bell



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 06:24PM by moose.

Highly doubtful. He was too busy sneaking around and trying to keep everyone else in the dark. (pun intended!)

I'm sure the Porn industry has done something like this.

A 30+some? logistics would be tricky though.

We know that William Clayton wrote in his personal diary about a threesome he had with two of his wives. He asked his first wife if he could bed two of his other wives at the same time and she replied "do as you have a mind to"...

Clayton was closer to Joseph Smith than almost anyone else. Where did he get the idea that it would be fine to have a threesome?

They were men. Of course they had whatever sex they could get away with. And since they were supposed to be "gods" to them wives they could get away whit a hell of a lot.

From "On This Day in Mormon History":

Aug 24, 1843 - William Clayton writes in his journal: "At night
I asked mother [his mother in law] if M[argaret Moon--his plural
wife] might sleep with Ruth [Moon--his legal wife and sister of
Margaret] and me. She appeared very rebellious and would not
consent but said we might do as we had a mind."

I bet he will in the porno version of "Meet the Mormons"!

Joseph was a sexual predator who groomed young girls in his own home to later take advantage of them.