My e-mail exchange, late last year, with a TBM correspondent
living in the western U.S. is still causing me headaches.

I had known the fellow, briefly, while attending the UofU and
mentioned that fact in my first letter to him. He agreed to
furnish me with some information from that time, and that
seemed to be the end of the communication...

...until he offered some comments regarding my web-sites.

That eventually led to a question -- and he responded:

Me: "In all the years since 1830 there have been literally
thousands of complaints and criticisms published regarding
Mormonism -- Doesn't it stand to reason that at least
A FEW of those criticisms were valid?"

Him: "No... Our Church has Jesus Christ himself at its head.
We are as close to being perfect as is possible..."

Me: "But there must have been SOME mistakes and wrongdoing
in the past -- in a church of millions of members."

"Him: "Well, people are human and you could probably uncover
a few problems, if you dug deeply enough -- but not with our
leaders and not with their doctrines and policies."

Me: "You don't consider the Adam-God teachings of the past
to have been a mistaken doctrine? And what about excluding
Negro members from endowments and from the Celestial Kingdom?"

[Here he avoided giving me an answer, but later added]...

Him: "What the prophets say and do, when not speaking as
prophets (when speaking as men, only) is not our concern.
Heavenly Father will not hold us [i.e. the members] in any
way responsible. The responsibility rests upon the shoulders
of them [the leaders] alone..."

So -- the LDS Church is never wrong. If there are any mistakes
made within its ranks, they are the shortcomings of low-level
individuals. And, if a top-level leader ever says or does
anything that proves to be "wrong" he was acting as a man.

That seemed to be a flabbergasting assertion -- from a highly
educated, successful professional, with 60 years in the church.

My final question was to solicit his explanation, as to how
those thousands upon thousands of past criticisms of Mormons
and Mormonism could have all -- every single one -- been wrong.

His answer, in a single word: "Satan."

Anybody else ever encounter this sort of LDS intransigence?

UD

http://www.challengemin.org/adamgod.html

Bruce admits that Brigham Young taught false doctrines, specifically, the Adam-God DOCTRINE:

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him."

But in an astonishingly brain busting trip, he suggests that it was okay for BY to teach it: "he was a great prophet and HAS GONE ON TO ETERNAL REWARD."

However, even though BY went to heaven after teaching it, if we believe it, it will cost us our salvation: "If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us."

Now my head hurts.

What happened to prophets never leading the church astray? I have to call bullsh!t.

I've encountered this thinking before. It's like the hard core Bible literalists who won't budge a millimeter. Because if any part of the Bible is only a metaphor, only a story, or just a plain error, then ANY of it can be wrong. So hard core Mormons believe that if the church was ever wrong about anything, then it could be wrong about (oh no) everything. No no, that must never happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2014 05:11PM by Stray Mutt.

"Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever."
Michael Corleone

I am confused by this thought process as well. When I was TBM, I didn't know about God-Adam theory and I thought there must have been some reason that God did not want black people to have the priesthood. (I lived in Utah, so I think this kind of discrimination didn't register with me because it was ended when I was a baby and I didn't know any black people that would have put a real face to it.)

Now that I have left TSCC, they come out with the essay repudiating all past racism by their own institution. So, I have asked a few TBMs why they would follow these men as prophets if they now admit they could get something so terribly wrong? Of course, only one will even talk to me about it, and he said he accepts that they make mistakes but he doesn't think they are allowed to lead the church astray FOR VERY LONG. What? I thought they claimed God would not allow them to lead the church astray at all!

No TBM I know would tolerate this question, but I want to ask them, who takes responsibility and must suffer the consequences of their own decisions. You are the one who must suffer the consequences, at least here in the real world. Why would you allow someone else to decide things for you if they admit they might not get it right? Plus, aren't you capable of making your own decisions? Why turn that over to someone else just as fallible as you? I guess other people are affected by our decisions too, but as it turns out, everything the church leaders tell people to do is your loss and their gain!

Mormon creed of 'do what your leaders tell you even if you know it is wrong and you will be blessed.

Hitler's creed is 'what a great line'.

Wow. Your tbm friend has the thought process of a child. A young one at that. Sad to see someone so brainwashed, but that is what a cult does. Aint no way to make the blind see.

Quoth the Raven Nevermo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow. Your tbm friend has the thought process of a
> child. A young one at that. Sad to see someone so
> brainwashed, but that is what a cult does. Aint
> no way to make the blind see.


The LDS fellow I mentioned in my posting is not really a
friend, but I knew him fairly well in grad school. No
doubt he's intelligent and well-experienced in his work.

I can only assume that his kind of childish mentality is
not only tolerated among the Mormons, but fostered by them.

In what other social sphere would thousands upon thousands
of criticisms and complaints be dismissed as adding up to
nothing else than a Satanic conspiracy? Not even the rabid
Scientologists would resort to such an asinine defense.

I tried to draw the fellow out on the 1857 Mountain Meadows
massacre, but he claimed to know nothing about the event,
other than it must have been one of dozens of such attacks
carried out against pioneers by Indians in the Old West.
He was vaguely familiar with the fact that John D. Lee
was once a Mormon and homesteader in Utah's Dixie, before
he turned apostate and said bad things about the Church.

Imagine that! A guy with a graduate degree and 60 years
in the Mormon Church whose memory did not associate Lee
with that notorious massacre!

It boggles my mind...

UD

"I can only assume that his kind of childish mentality is
not only tolerated among the Mormons, but fostered by them."

Mormon arrested development - a hallmark of the breed.

Question for TBM: Why doesn't it bother you that it's the CHEVY DEALER (the prophet) that's telling you about and selling you a CHEVROLET (Mormonism)?

"The prophet will never lead the church astray."
Signed, the prophet.

With Adam-God, you should have shown the guy a quote of a prophet saying it's wrong, then a quote of Brigham preaching the doctrine, and ask him which one is correct.

QWE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With Adam-God, you should have shown the guy a
> quote of a prophet saying it's wrong, then a quote
> of Brigham preaching the doctrine, and ask him
> which one is correct.


The fellow I communicated with had heard of the Adam-God
teaching and was aware of non-Mormon criticisms on that point.
But he avoided references to the published Brigham Young
promotions of that doctrine and only tangentially responded,
by admitting it was a teaching of polygamist apostates.

That term seemed (for him) to cover both modern fundamentalists
and some vague portion of polygamists in some vague past span
of time, which may or may not have extended back to Brigham.

While some Mormons I've spoken to realize that Brigham was at
least TRYING to speak as a prophet, I'm certain that my LDS
correspondent would have dismissed any published counsel as
Brigham "speaking as a man."

That is exactly how he responded to my mentioning of the
First Presidency's infamous Fourth of July pronouncement,
made at Far West, Missouri, and later repeated in response
to the coming of Johnston's army in 1858 ---- that the LDS
leaders could Divinely designate any opponent as a "mob,"
and make war, even upon the troops of the US Government.

"That's not in the Standard Works..." was his reply, thus
suggesting that Rigdon and the Smith brothers had spoken
only "as men" in that 1838 First Presidency message.

I still do not understand -- how any Mormon can know for
certain that "the Prophet" is speaking as a prophet, and
not just "as a man."

???

UD

the Adam-God teaching goes back to the roots of the Corp undermining basic, core teachings of Christianity;
However, like most beliefs, there's No Way to 'PROVE' it Wrong/False in an absolute way.

I believe that the most current, pertinent Failure today also started with BY, when he ignored/'overruled' the N.T. / BoM teachings regarding divorce- (rumored that he granted them for a fee) which it turns out is counter to the Corps <claimed> focus on 'Family Values'.

'someone ought to write a book about this...' Will B., Grant P., DM Quinn?
proposed title: "the LDS Divorce Manual, History & Current Applications'



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2014 02:28PM by GNPE.