When I discovered TSCC to be total farse, I fell into a spin. I started to examine and doubt my remaining beliefs.

For some reason, I'm hung up on Christianity. I don't take very much of the bible literally. I don't hold it as infallible either. I know it's got more untruths than truths.

After TSCC fell from under me, part of me just won't let go of Christianity. I don't know what my issue is.

Catholicism, with all of it's imperfections, calls to me like a floating log in the middle of an ocean. Is it just the closest thing left that I'm trying to grab onto?

I basically have whittled my beliefs down to these...

1. Belief in a power more aware or deeper than myself.
2. We are all connected somehow
3. We are all ignorant; in varying degrees

Ok. The following are more feelings than beliefs:
1. I have love for the idea of Jesus.
2. Writtings seem to stress importance of breaking bread and drinking wine.
3. RCC does this as it's central theme. Everything else it does or states is kind of extra.

So that's kind of where I stand. But I know how ridiculous some of the beliefs sound.

I guess my mind is becoming atheist but my heart won't let go. So I'm stuck in a hurricane of cog-dis.

I wish I could go either one way or the other and be done with it. Atheist or catholic. Being stuck in the middle really sucks.

I'm adding some of my replies to this OT to help form more of what I'm trying to get at:

I have a degree in philosophy and history of religions, and have been exposed to lots of perspectives.

I agree alot with the most simplistic/first Buddhist teachings.

However, I can't figure out what this Christian hangup is for me. It's probably one of the most liberal takes possible, but it is there nonetheless.

I don't know if it's fear...but it could be.

What I identify as my spiritual nature is what I hold most dear. So part of me, if not all of me, is afraid of what might happen if my brain leads me to athiesm. Where does that leave what I see as my core? I can't even put it into words

Any of you get stuck like this between atheism and a belief?

How long did it last for you?

A number of your replies tell me to relax, to take it slow.

I'm trying. I feel swept away in a current, and I'm trying not to struggle. This whole thing is affecting my sleep, mood, thoughts and everything else. And I worry about the fact I can't stop worrying. It reminds me of a bad acid trip.

I can sometimes just be present. But that slips away too, and I keep getting in the here and now in spurts.

I was walking with my wife out of a casino to our car. All of a sudden I was in pure bliss. I was aware that I was aware. But after about 20 seconds of awe, I had the thought that not everything is aware, something like how the rest of the universe missed out on that moment, and a loneliness hit me so hard. I know others experience these moments too, and I'm not able to share it in union with them. This line of thinking creates the worst loneliness fathomable. Anyway, that's part of the struggle I'm in. I tried to share it with my wife, and she understood partially, but not perfectly. It felt cheapened by attempting to put it into words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 04:56PM by Lost Mystic.

I have never had a situation like yours. I have been Protestant all my life. But I think some Mormons really wanted a closer relationship with JC all along, but never got it. So now that they are out, they wish to examine that and why NOT??? If it doesn't work in a Christian church for you, at least you tried. I would just take one day at a time. You don't sound atheist to me at all. Also I think you are letting this stress you out more than you should.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 11:22AM by honestone.

Buddhists are essentialy atheists but also very spiritual.

Of course, belief in a loving, caring deity is also very comforting. Perhaps you are in a difficult place and don't want to give up that comfort either.

My advice, realize you don't HAVE to believe or disbelieve anything. Go slow. Examine your feelings and thoughts carefully. You are actually in a wonderful place where you get to build your spirituality yourself rather than rely on what has been told to you your entire life. Maybe enroll in an ethics or philosophy class to give your mental journey some structure (if you think it will help).

Good luck and don't stress too much -- it's not like it matters in the end what you believe because what happens, happens. :)

Your reply title sums it up perfect.

I have a degree in philosophy and history of religions, and have been exposed to lots of perspectives.

I agree alot with the most simplistic/first Buddhist teachings.

However, I can't figure out what this Christian hangup is for me. It's probably one of the most liberal takes possible, but it is there nonetheless.

I don't know if it's fear...but it could be.

What I identify as my spiritual nature is what I hold most dear. So part of me, if not all of me, is afraid of what might happen if my brain leads me to athiesm. Where does that leave what I see as my core? I can't even put it into words...

in fact, you're more versed in such things than I am.

I personally don't recall the iterative step of Christianity loitering around between mormon belief and total non-belief.

One thing the bible got right... "from dust you are, and unto dust you shall return." What you choose to do in that lifetime is up to you, and you have a couple hundred thousand years of human-created myths and philosophies to choose from. Or make up your own.

The following article meant a lot for me... but it tends to work on a logical level. I guess I've usually been a little challenged on the "spiritual side." FWIW.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

It's a bit of a long read.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 05:26PM by jpt.

Basically I believe that every theology has something interesting to offer. So I've taken principles and general ideas I found relevant to myself and formed my own thoughts and conclusions. I view religious texts as metaphors to be deciphered into something meaningful. A 'cafeteria experience' to put it bluntly. It's all very personal to me and I believe 'spirituality' should be something experienced rather than discussed. (I use the word 'spirituality' loosely because it means different things to different people. I.E Meditation is a 'spiritual' experience for me.)

We all have our different interests and emotional triggers. There's nothing wrong with believing in something higher than yourself and there's nothing wrong with not believing in a higher power, whatever it may be. My personal view on that is that if there is a higher power, it isn't something we can comprehend and it sure as hell isn't some white guy with a beard. If the belief you seek shackles you as an individual then it's probably time to re-think things.

Something to chew on, are you willing to let Catholicism define your life?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 11:47AM by Strykary.

There's no reason to fret and worry about any of this right now as if there were a work deadline to solving life's problems by next week.

I think most of us come into our own in time. We were mormons for years and it might take years to figure out where we stand. We're not working for a grade or a pay scale increase so we don't need to rush or worry. Any just God would understand that.

...then just do it. You can always change your mind later. There is nothing that says you need to devote your entire life in any particular religion or philosophy. Be where you are now, believe what you believe right now, that is perfectly alright and it's an act of honesty that any reasonable god ought to appreciate.

but hounding for anything aint one of them......yo could convert and then leave and pretty much no one would bat an eye!! unless you hget all social with some and then THEY might ask about you...but the church wont!!!

Many people find great comfort in a belief in God. Believing that the "creator of the universe" is personally watching over you generates a nice warm feeling.

The problem is that wishful thinking doesn't mean something is "true". Religion tells you that God exists, but it tells you absolutely nothing about how God controls the universe. I prefer to rely on science to give me an accurate picture of universe.

Let's consider the size of the universe, as told to us by the science of astronomy. There are 125 billion galaxies in the known universe, with the average galaxy having 125 billion stars. So there are 15,625,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the known universe, one of which is our sun.

Why would we expect that the creator of that universe would take a personal interest in each of the 6.7 billion humans living on a planet that revolves around one sun? Might it be more logical that God has more important things to do in controlling the entire universe?

The most remote galaxies are over 11 billion light years away from earth. (A light year is the distance that light travels in a year.) Light travels 670,616,629 miles per hour. So the distance of the most distant known galaxies is 64,620,618,370,440,000,000,000 miles from earth.

Science tells us that it is not possible for anything to travel faster than the speed of light. So how could God, sitting in one location, control the entire universe? To my way of thinking that is illogical and impossible.

When you want to figure out what is happening here on earth, a good rule is "follow the money." A church cannot exist without money, and of course a church gets its money from its members. The Catholics are no exception. Americans gave an estimated $93.18 billion to religious organizations in 2005.

The products that religions have to sell are (1) God, the creator of the universe, is watching over you, and (2) God will give you eternal life if you are righteous and support His One True Church. You pay your money to support your church, and for that price the church promises you the above two benefits. Churches cannot prove that they deliver either of those two products.

My opinion is that all religions are scams. My "belief" in science costs me nothing and I think it is a lot more logical than the magic of religions. I was BIC and I became an atheist at age 15 and quit the Mormon church at age 17. For the past 52 years I have been completely happy with those two decisions. The money that I saved by NOT being an active member of a church is now providing me with a comfortable retirement. (Note: 85% of Americans reach retirement age with inadequate personal savings. If your only source of income is Social Security, you will live below the poverty line.)

My best advice to you is "go ye forth and do likewise."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 01:40PM by saviorself.

+ one million.
Insanity is everywhere. Sanity is rare. You just heard some sanity from Saviourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 05:32PM by roflmao.

I sometimes have the same problem. I've been drawn to different religions including RCC. I still read the NT a lot.

Why? Don't know. My brain tells me that much of the NT was written for propaganda. Jesus was probably just one of those Messiah figures going around Jerusalem 2000 years ago and Paul made Christianity in his own image. My beliefs are pretty much agnostic.

But I'm still drawn to the Christian mystics and the concept I had of Jesus when I believed. I don't get it.

One thing I do like about Catholicism is that it can just be the tradition that you were born into, like being Jewish. I know Jewish folks who never go to a Synagogue and don't consider themselves to be particularly religious, but they do identify with being Jewish. It's their tradition and their heritage, rather than what they believe in.

I also know Catholics who never go to church, but will always consider themselves to be Catholic. I was baptized as an infant into the Catholic Church, but never taken to a Catholic service in my life. But for the first 13 or so years of my life, I called myself a Catholic, for lack of anything else to call myself.

Back then, they still asked you in school what faith you were on school forms.

I'm kind of in the middle on this one, too, although I don't have any confidence in any organized religion. Instead of choosing atheism, I chose to redefine God. We know the universe exists, so something must have created it. If it was created by the Big Bang and forces of nature, then you could call those creative forces God. If you believe in the power of love, you could call this power God. If you trust in the overall goodness of the human spirit, that can be God. If you feel a sense of awe at the amazing depth of the universe while looking up at the stars at night, that could be God. God doesn't have to be in human form, doesn't have to be aware of you, and doesn't have to be any traditional concept of Deity. For me, it's mostly a recognition that there is something that exists that is greater than myself.
I think you should go with what you feel in your heart, don't let anyone else define God or your spirituality for you, and look for what you most deeply believe to be true, using logic as a guide but not as a final answer. It's good to search for truth, but in the end I don't think anyone has all the answers - though you may find deep meaning in the traditions of the Catholic church.
To me it sounds like you are doing just fine with figuring out your spiritual perspective on life. Just realize that you don't necessarily have to choose to be atheist or Catholic - you can be a Catholic with a tendency towards an atheist perspective, or an atheist who attends Catholic services. It's just how you choose to define yourself.

and get a pretty good idea of it's truthfulness.

You have to ask yourself, why would the Romans, who were highly organized and logical, demand that residents of a province return to their place of birth (Bethlehem for Mary and Joseph) in order to count them for a census? Such a move would render the results inaccurate and useless.

Jesus of Nazareth? There was no such town at the time of his birth.

There is a problem with the name of Caesars, leaders mentioned as alive who were not.

Then you have to accept Jesus was concerned about the Jews of his time and no one else, let alone people 2000 years away who are not Jews.

You can see the awesome and amazing in science and human discovery. Go into the woods and you will find religion.

ozpoof Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and get a pretty good idea of it's truthfulness.
>
> You have to ask yourself, why would the Romans,
> who were highly organized and logical, demand that
> residents of a province return to their place of
> birth (Bethlehem for Mary and Joseph) in order to
> count them for a census? Such a move would render
> the results inaccurate and useless.
>
> Jesus of Nazareth? There was no such town at the
> time of his birth.
>
> There is a problem with the name of Caesars,
> leaders mentioned as alive who were not.
>
> Then you have to accept Jesus was concerned about
> the Jews of his time and no one else, let alone
> people 2000 years away who are not Jews.
>
> You can see the awesome and amazing in science and
> human discovery. Go into the woods and you will
> find religion.

Actually archaeologists dicovered artifacts from the time of Jesus a couple of years a go in Nazareth and even if they hadn't, Nazareth was so small at thet time that it would hardly be surprising if there were no artifacts. The guess is that Nazareth was a small village of maybe 400-500 people.

You are wrong on this. There are no artifacts of a village from the time of when Jesus was around.

If it weren't for the mistranslation of "Jesus the Narozean" to "Jesus of Nazarath" there would be no-one claiming that such a village existed, because it didn't.

amartin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are wrong on this. There are no artifacts of a
> village from the time of when Jesus was around.
>
> If it weren't for the mistranslation of "Jesus the
> Narozean" to "Jesus of Nazarath" there would be
> no-one claiming that such a village existed,
> because it didn't.

Sorry, but it was widely reported that there were artifacts from Nazareth found from the time of Jesus a couple of years ago. It was on line and in the papers.I read several accounts of it. I can't persoonally vouch for it since I wasn't there and I am not an archaeologist and I assume that is true of you also, but I am assuming the story wasn't pulled out of thin air.Even if there are no artifacts from a tiny village during a short time frame, that is a far cry from proving it doesn't exist.The 'Nazareth never existed' theory is at best speculation and hardly a fact as some people here seem to think.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth..Here is a link that discusses it. It seems that the Israeli Antiquites organization disagrees with you



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 06:39PM by bona dea.

I would take some time and not worry about it. I t took me about 30 years before I realized that I am not all that sure of what I believe and that it doesn't really bother me. I believe in a higher power but I have no real definition of what it is and I like Jesus and consider myself a Christian of sorts although I don't think Jesus was divine. When I attend church, I attend a service I enjoy, usually Catholic or Episcopal and don't stress about not believing it all.It is okay not to know.

A number of your replies tell me to relax, to take it slow.

I'm trying. I feel swept away in a current, and I'm trying not to struggle. This whole thing is affecting my sleep, mood, thoughts and everything else. And I worry about the fact I can't stop worrying. It reminds me of a bad acid trip.

I can sometimes just be present. But that slips away too, and I keep getting in the here and now in spurts.

I was walking with my wife out of a casino to our car. All of a sudden I was in pure bliss. I was aware that I was aware. But after about 20 seconds of awe, I had the thought that not everything is aware, something like how the rest of the universe missed out on that moment, and a loneliness hit me so hard. I know others experience these moments too, and I'm not able to share it in union with them. This line of thinking creates the worst loneliness fathomable. Anyway, that's part of the struggle I'm in. I tried to share it with my wife, and she understood partially, but not perfectly. It felt cheapened by attempting to put it into words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 04:31PM by Lost Mystic.

to try on a lot of ideas. Choose the ones that resonate with you at the time, and allow it all to evolve. As you change, and grow older, beliefs and notions about the world and life will probably change also.
There are no hard and fast rules, it's OK to keep it general and non specific also.

Look at the facts and evidence out there and see how they square with your beliefs. Do you want to have to develop a cognitive dissonance situation to support the gap between the facts and your beliefs?

In other words, ask yourself why you decided on those beliefs and not others if you don't have facts behind them. Did you pick them because you wish they were true? Do they resonate with you because they give you hope and comfort even if there is no basis for them?

Ultimately you get to make the rules for yourself and see what works for you like SusieQ says.

Religious attitudes evolve over time. When I left the LDS Church, I was in limbo for a while. I had belief in God and considered myself Christian. I am now atheist and VERY comfortable with that, but it goes kind-of against nature.

I think there's something in human biology which pre-disposes people toward the belief in some higher being and power. I think it must be an ingrained survival mechanism. So a belief in something is somewhat hardwired into our biology. Going against that often initially feels very wrong and uncomfortable.

For me, I don't know the answers but have come to the point where it doesn't matter. Spirituality is the best option for me, which means to enjoy the beauty and peace of nature, besides looking for uplifting messages from all cultures (or religions) and reject those that messages that are manipulative. I appreciate the teachings of love and forgiveness. Meditation is also part of letting go the urgency to know all the answers. Research has proven that those who meditate find more peace than any other way, it is even shows up as brain growth.

I hope you may find the peace you are looking for.

My apologies to Mark Twain for my adaptation of his quote "...Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

It sounds to me that your struggle can be narrowed down to 'what you want to believe vs. what you know is true', or 'want you want reality to be vs. reality'.

If this is true, then your struggle will not end until you pick one and disregard the other.

There is another possibility that I see. It could be that you are struggling with trusting and believing in yourself. You have already let go of the ideas of the LDS and that has lead you to questioning the idea of Jesus and it seems you have reached the point where you are not able to justify that belief but are afraid to give it up.

May it be possible that you are afraid to give up on Jesus because that would leave you with only your belief in "power more aware or deeper than myself"? Could it be that you are afraid even that might not hold up to the scrutiny that caused the ideas of the LDS and Christ to fall? If this is the case, then the flower is indeed ready to bloom. The flower now only needs to trust itself.

That's the tricky part...

I don't even know what to trust in myself! How do I know?

You talk about "When I discovered TSCC to be total farse" you were talking about finding the truth, or the knowledge that TSCC was false, thus you let go of a belief (a belief based on feelings, btw).

Another place where you talk about what you do know is when you say "For some reason, I'm hung up on Christianity. I don't take very much of the bible literally. I don't hold it as infallible either. I know it's got more untruths than truths."

Then you switch from talking about what you know to talking about beliefs and feelings when you say:

"I basically have whittled my beliefs down to these..."

"Ok. The following are more feelings than beliefs"

So, you do indeed know the difference between what you know to be true, what you believe and what you feel. Sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp on understanding what you know, believe and feel.

Re read you original post paying attention to what you say you know. One statement you said "I know how ridiculous some of the beliefs sound", why would you know "ridiculous" they sound if they don't at least in part sound ridiculous to you? You do indeed know a great deal, knowledge you can trust.

But the bottom line, you say "How do I know?" To that I would ask, why do you want to trust a Catholic church which teaches the bible is true even though you know the bible is "more untruths than truths"? Who are you going to trust, someone (or thing) that is telling you things you know are not true, or yourself and what you know is true?

I guess I was thinking I'd be my own type of catholic...lol

I will NEVER put another human being between myself and my understanding of existence. If I was to become catholic, it would only be because:

1. I retained a belief in Jesus as a savior
2. I believed he instructed me to break bread in memory
3. That's it. Since the RCC is closest to the source regarding this act, I would choose it.

The only thing I'd rely on someone else for would be to bless the cracker.

Those sound so retarded to mind, but if I retain a belief in Jesus, those are the only things that would make me become catholic.

You are so right on MJ. I looked at my first post and noticed how I worded things and what I said I knew or believed. I guess I just need to continue my own processing in what's gotten me this far. It hurts like hell.

I can't give you any advice but I can tell you my own experience. I converted to Catholicism about ten years ago and I love it. I love the beauty, the connection to the past and even the intellectualism. Believe it or not, there are some very deep thinkers in the Catholic church. Someone, I think Frances Sheen, wrote that the Catholic church is shallow enough for a mouse and deep enough for an elephant. I know there were some posters who recommended Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. I highly recommend it as well. Good luck

You need to be aware that everything in the world is there to draw you away from Jesus. It's important to keep the faith

I tend to believe that everything, EVERYTHING in existence is God speaking to me.

Whether it be science, a homeless man taking a dump in an alley, terrorism, tripping over a curb, any brand of scripture, or anything else in existence, is God or the universe communicating with me to teach me something...Not draw me away from something...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 05:57PM by Lost Mystic.

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

What is your personal take on pantheism MJ? In what way do you think it differs from atheism? I always felt they were similar in a way.

Kind of the view that the universe is what it is, and try to learn what you can from it. Everything or nothing is god is kind of the same thing to me...

I have a pantheistic perspective in a way, but again in ways not...

I'm at a crossroad

Is that people are renaming nature in order to maintain a belief in the concept of God. If nature and God are one in the same, why use a term like God? I have next to no beef with Pantheists in that they are deriving their knowledge from Nature, the same as scientists. I think that Pantheists do a little unnecessary mental gymnastics but would end up in the same place. When I was in AA my "higher power" was essentially Pantheist, my higher power was nature. I was using "higher power" as a synonym for nature. The reality was, I was using the term "higher power" or "God" because those where the terms that were expected to be used.

But I do agree, Nature is a power far greater than I. When I look at nature being the universe as a whole, as I do believe, then I am stuck on something that does not even equal a speck of dust, along for the ride, and there is nothing I can do to change that. I go where the particle of dust I am on goes. The human race is a product of nature and everything humanity makes is natural, just as a bird's nest is a product of nature and is natural.

My life is almost completely ruled by nature, I only have a very limited amount of control over how I react to nature's control. If I fight against the direction nature is taking me, I will eventually exhaust myself and get nowhere. Once I stop fighting the flow, I notice there are lots of interesting paths that go the same direction as the flow. With minimal effort I can pick among the available paths, go with the flow and enjoy life. I guess I could call that Pantheistic if I cared to, but why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 06:56PM by MJ.

Thanks for your response! I guess that's what I was talking about...defined by a name or what not.

I guess my view on that comes down to intent. I believe in a higher power that has intent on teaching me. That is of course a belief, which may be overcome in my process.

We aren't so different, you and I. I appreciate your time and perspective, and it helps me in my journey...

What is the intent of that god when it is causing innocent children (children too young to learn lessons) to suffer while he/she/it is teaching you?

If you believe in a God of intent, then you kind of have to look at all of the intentions of that God with regards to what he/she/it is doing to everyone.

Was all the suffering of the two world wars intended to teach lessons? That would be a brutal lesson plan don't you think?

But that gets me back to my originally point, perhaps you are afraid of giving up Jesus and the Catholic Church because you are afraid that the next step would be to apply the same reasoning skills to your god of intent that you applied to TSCC, Christ and the Catholic Church getting the same result. Perhaps, in the back of your mind somewhere, you already know what would happen if you did apply the same reasoning to your god of intent.

Everything you perceive "in" the world is perceived via the body's senses and so tacitly affirms your bodily identity. It is also interpreted by your present level of awareness, so likewise it affirms your present sense of self (ego). It is said that from spiritual vision, NOTHING we perceive here is "real," just images fashioned by our minds. Meditation is typically a process of letting go of those mind-made images.

I know, some people make that charge about religion--that it's imaginary--but ignore the physiological and psychological truth that this is the case about all images that the brain makes (out of electronic and neural stimuli). Shared imagery (since body-brains have relatively the same circuitry) doesn't make this any more "real," just a "consensus reality."

... or being ashamed of such feelings, why not explore it fully? If it is not right for you, you will discover this.

You no longer need to answer to any self-appointed human religious authorities, Lost Mystic. You do not have to fit any particular mold. You are now free to examine any and all beliefs / non-beliefs, and come to your own conclusion about which are true and which are not.

Who says that you have to be either Catholic or atheist, or either Christian or Buddhist? Your path may be eclectic. Explore the areas you feel drawn to, with no apologies to anyone! Every path is unique.

And as many others have said, take your time. You will not get instant clarity overnight. Of course you feel uncomfortable (“stuck in the middle”) right now. Certainty is always more comfortable than uncertainty! Nevertheless, uncertainty is an unavoidable stage as we initially deal with the loss of a large chunk of our religious paradigm.

Your discouragement is understandable and temporary. Eventually, you will arrive at a set of beliefs that is a good fit for you!

Or to someone drawn to the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project prior to November 18, 1978

Or to someone drawn to Heavens gate prior to March 23, 1997?

You might like the Episcopal church. It is similar to Catholic in some ways but more liberal. it would be easiser to be a cafeteria member. You can also attend the Catholic church without being a member although you can't take communion. Episcopals will allow you to participate if you believe in God..