This one issue has always been absolutely HUGE for me, and I wonder if others see it the same:

When the whole Hoffman affair took place, GBH, then a counselor in the presidency and Dallin Oakes were heavily involved, dealing with and buying up I believe around 80, correct me if I am off on that number, fraudulent documents from a man later proved to be a liar, forger, and murderer.

IF THE CHURCH WERE TRUE, WHY WAS NOT THE HOLY GHOST GIVING THEM THE POWER TO DISCERN THESE THINGS ABOUT THIS TERRIBLE MAN??? I REPEAT, 2 MURDERS WOULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED! And why were mormons so very blind to the truth to this incident?

Then there is the fact that they were buying up many many of Hoffman's forgeries, for the purpose of hiding them from members of the church, because they would make the church look bad, untrue, if they were made public.

We all saw the pictures and newspaper articles of GBH and Oakes and Hoffman together signing off on the church's purchase of these forgeries.

To me this is possibly the biggest smoking gun of all, very recent, and very powerful evidence that even those in the highest of authority possess no special powers of discernment whatsoever.

And don't forget Dean Jesse, and all his BYU profs., striving desperately for a few days to come up with some silly explanation for the salamander spoken of in one of those documents ( Was it JS 3rd blessing?) They looked like absolute fools playing the role of apologetics for something complete based in falsehood. It was ridiculous!

But then, we all know that ANYTHING that might make the church look bad requires apologetic argument; something MUST be thought up to cover the truth, even in this case when the supposed truth was FAKE, a forgery. I even read a ridiculous apologetic response from Oakes himself about the authenticity of the the use of the word salamander. OMH! I could not get over it! I had serious doubts, even being TBM and wondered why no other mo's even seemed to care. It was strange to say the least.

How can the leaders of the mormon church possibly expect everyday members to possess this power of discernment through the H.G. and follow given promptings, if they were unable to do so themselves? They are the Lord's annointed, they are revered, they are those who ought to be more worthy than all others in their church to receive such promptings. And yet they received NOTHING of the sort! Why did the mormons not demand an explanation? I watched all of this in amazement, and wondered why no one considered these things.

If these 2 men of God COULD have discerned this knowledge through the power of the the H. G. as they claim is possible if one is personally worthy enough, two innocent men would be alive today, and Hoffman would have been easily discovered through this power to be the fraud and liar he was, well before the murders took place. Why do mormons not question this? Are we supposed to think that Hinkley and Oakes , apostles at the time, were not worthy enough?

IMO, this one modern day incident tells more than the average person would ever need to know concerning the truth (or not) of the LDS church and it's claim to be God's one and only true church upon the earth.

What did YOU think when this happened?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 01:43AM by think4u.

Yes, I remember when the "Salamander Letter" was featured in national newspapers. Church apologists said that Joseph Smith meant a "white spirit" when he claimed to have talked to a salamander. It's very ironic that I knew Joe Smith didn't talk to anything supernatural, and in fact the story was made up. But it totally fooled the Mormon authorities. Kind of like the Kinderhook Plates, when you think of it.

Spencer Kimball doddered around and professed his love for the murderer, Mark Hoffman. Gordon Hinckley approved the purchase of fraudulent documents that would be hidden from members to avoid embarrassment to the "church." Frauds can fooled, and con men can be conned. Once again, the Mormon church was proved a fake, but they don't care in Utah.

The HOffman incident is very damning to modern Mormonism.

1) How did this man deceive SWK, GBH and all the apostles? They supposedly have the gift of discernment, and yet a simple forgerer conned them out of thousands of sacred tithing dollars. Why didn't the Lord warn them of his deceit? Why do members work so hard to give to the church only to let a prophet of God waste it on fraudulent activities?

2) Why did the LDS Church spend all this money on alleged historical documents and then immediately sequester them away? Hoffman knew that church leaders are afraid of their own interest and eager to shelter the membership from the truth about JS. As Darth Packer said, "History is not our friend". The church will spend good money on bad documents just to shelter themselves from historical scrutiny. The last thing they want are church members re-examining church history outside the hagiographies they are served up in Seminary and Sunday School.

3) The LDS Church used its control of the Utah State government to keep Hinckster off the witness stand. They ordered the AG to give Hoffman an easy plea bargain in order to keep the church's nose clean. Hoffman likely would have gotten the death penalty if the LDS Church weren't so eager to protect its own image and keep Hinckster from answering some pretty embarrassing questions.

The Hoffman affair exposes the LDS leaders as false prophets, eager to hide embarrassing facts about their own history, who use their influence over Utah State politics for their own advantage. It certainly doesn't smell like Christ's one true church on Earth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 05:46AM by axeldc.

QUESTIONS INCLUDED HERE FOR ANYONE!
Are you kidding me, Hinkley would likely have gotten the death penalty? Had no idea! I mean if he got on the stand and said he knew nothing of the murder plan, which he obviously did not, it would have exposed him as false prophet that had no gift of discernment, buy WHY do you even suggest the death penaly?


And the waste of tithing money, a good point as well, I kinda missed that one . Yeah, a ton of members money wasted. I read a book by Linda Stilatoe and someone with Robert in his first or last name, a local writer/ artist- I actually dated him once, as in one time, and he told me about the book they had written together , which I had read already, which led to this man's apostasy. Like, duh.

But , still, for the members of the church, WHY and HOW were they just able to let it all just go without demanding , at least for themselves, some plausible explanation about why the HG had failed to forewarn the apostles? Not only to NOT buy the fake documents, but of the forthcoming murders? Also, do you know how much money or the number of documents they did buy up, I believe it was 80-100. Does that sound right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 08:10AM by think4u.

They wanted to keep The Lord's Anointed off the stand so as not to embarrass the church. The church used its influence on the attorney general to not press for the death penalty, which kept Hinckley from having to testify against Hoffman. Whew. Close call.

Sorry I read his post wrong, he said Hoffman, not Hinkley might have gotten the death penalty, duhhhh

Hoffman would likely have gotten the death penalty. Not Hinky.

Because the church is true. Period.

Besides, as anyone can tell you, to ask hard questions is to be called unfaithful, to be called to repentance, to lose your standing in the church, in your family, and in your community. To lose your standing in the church means to lose your place in the Celestial Kingdom with your parents spouse and children.

For some people, there is simply too much at stake to go around questioning the Prophets. For others the church is true and they don't need to worry because the Lord is in control. Still others will blame the media and its hatred for the Lords work.

The good news is that the Salamander Letter was a catalyst for a lot of people studying more about the early church and its origins, and that got a lot of information published which helped many people to see their way out.

The Hoffman murders was probably the first big crack in my testiphony. I remember reading all I could about it. When I offered to lend the Salamander book to one of my neighbors to read she wouldn't have anything to do with it. Surely it must be "anti" was her quip. It was very frustrating to watch the reaction of the average TBM.

I think that the church learned from this that they could say or do about anything and would lose very few members.

My TBM parents still believe that the "leadership" was not duped, rather the "leadership" was acting on the promptings of the spirit to remove these false stories from circulation when they bought those documents!?!?!?!?!?!

TBMs will believe absolutely anything "praiseworthy" no matter how ridiculous.

That part about what your parents think is just unbelievable, except that I really do believe it. Wow!

Curiously, those false stories were actually true.

I was out of the loop when the whole thing came to pass, but I saw a program on TV about it a few years later called City Confidential, the thing that stuck in my mind was that the woman who was talking about the salamander said that either the church was not good, or that it was far more mystical than people knew.

Not sure who she was but I think that she was one of the September Six...

I asked about the Hofmann affair and was told to think that the brethren had purchased those documants to keep them out of sight until they could be proven one way or the other. Not sure, but it seems that that same position someone made in the program.

A couple of reasons come to mind for me. I was in grade school back then. When I heard about it, I never understood it and my dad never went to church and my mom believes in anything superstitious. My other family members rationalized it as God not trying to show the power of revelation to the prophet as a means certain proof that he would be a prophet.

When the book the Mormon Murders came out, it was viewed widely as a anti-mormon smere. I stayed away from it. However, within the last 10 years a History Channel show of it was created and I watched it twice. Again, I never thought twice about it. If fact, I debated with someone over it once and said the very things about the proof of being prophecy given to find the phony document making scheme.

Within the last few months I read a statement made by the leadership in conference with regards to it where they simply said "we were fooled". I guess I should have watched conference more often back then. After reading thru doctrine, my theory now is why the heck didn't they have a revelation to warn of the pending danger of Hoffman so that none of this would have happened and let Hoffman try to expose the church with these documents? In the end, Hoffman would have been exposed without showing proof of the prophetic power.

Again, its the power of brainwashing. Those rag heads that flew the planes in the twin towers really believed they would be rewarded in the afterlife.

I've always been amused that the first people to suspect Hoffman's fraud were the evil, apostate Jerald and Sandra Tanner!

Did not know that, how very interesting.

Where did Hoffman get his idea for the "Salamander Letter". Was it totally made up or was there something in JS's history that served as the inspiration.

Hoffman must have really chuckled knowing that not only was he making a lot of money, he was duping the "Lord's Annointed". What power trip that must have been for him.

There is something in the history of either JS or in palmyra NY about a white lizard visitation. Hoffman must have known about the history of what was going on in that area as well as the church leadership. He didn't just pull that lizard out of a hat, it was planned very well and the church bought it due to the connection it had in church history somewhere. I just can't remember how it all worked.

Yes, that's the interesting thing- that this bizarre story about a Salamander and digging up his dead brother's body actually had enough credibility in the eyes of the GA's that they bought it hook, line, and sinker.

I think it comes from one of JS boyhood "friends" Willard Chase. One of his statements mentioned "something like a toad" in the box with the plates that morphed into Moroni. It is along the lines of the spirit guardian of treasures.

btw, Willard always maintained that the seer stone was his. According to him, they dug it out of a well, he saw it first but Joseph took it. Reminds me of "what have you found my precious? its my birthday, give it to us its my precious..."

What you say about the salamander thing it right on with what Michael Quinn speaks of in his book "Mormonism and the Magic World View"- was that the right name? I think so, read it quite a while back.

Oh yeah, ALMOST worth the risk of a life in jail! He is famous in his own way, for being wicked, and some want fame no matter what form it may come in. Good or bad, righteous or evil: obviously for some it makes no difference, fame is fame after all.

They spent thousands on purchasing faked materials that seemed to lend credibility to mormon claims. Then they kept spending on faked items which made Joe Smith and the church look foolish, but of course this turned the effort covert.

They didn't want a full trial to lay out Hofman's guilt but chose to button it up and quietly put him away.

The widow of one of his victims spoke at an exmo convention. Who remembers that?

I would have loved to have heard her. It her story anywhere online? Anyone know?

I am not aware of Steve Christiansen's widow speaking at any exmo-conference, but in 2006, Brent Metcalf was a keynote speaker at the fall conference.

http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/audio2006.html

Brent worked for Steve and shared his passion for Mormon history. Steve was killed because Mark owed Steve some documents that Mark had not yet produced.

Steve was becoming suspicious and threatened to expose Mark as a fraud unless he could produce the documents. Steve gave Mark a deadline. Mark chose to kill Steve like a coward, rather than be exposed.

Mark also left a bomb at the home of one of Steve's former business partners, Gary Sheets. The bomb was intended to make it look like someone was upset with Steve and Gary's business dealings to throw the trail off of Mark. Kathy Sheets, Gary's wife, picked up the package instead and was killed.

Mark immediately became a suspect, when he accidently blew himself up with another bomb and his story didn't match the evidence.

Yes, Church officials were buying potentially damaging materials to hide them. Yes, they have no special powers of discernment. Yes, their cover-up is evidence of their desire to perpetuate the fraud.

However, Mark Hoffman is simply a fraud, forger, liar, killer and coward. I would personally trade his life to get Steve and Kathy back anyday.

was the church's desperation at keeping the McLellin papers out of the public eye. McLellin was a personal clerk, friend and confidant of Joseph Smith who also kept a great deal written down. Mark tried top blackmail the church by pretending to have this material. The church knew that it would be damaging to its image if the truth got out, and was willing to pull any string to get those papers before the public could see them.

This was also much of the reason that Mark was able to sell so much stuff to the church. All he had to do awas announce he had something that was true, and the church would try to get it before the members could be troubled by it.

In the end, the church already had the McLellin papers in their vaults, and all the pain and suffering and backdoor money deals were a complete waste. Even better, there isn't really that much damaging material in his papers that wasn't already available and known.

The men holding the position of Prophet knew nothing and had zero inspiration, except that the image of the church must be maintained at any cost.

In the end, the biggest smoking gun besides the total lack of revelation of behalf of the church, is its desperation to keep the truth about itself from being exposed.

And that is why when people ask, "Do you think the GA's know of the fraud", I reply "They must or why would they be so desperate to cover things up?"

One will not try to cover up things if he sees no need for a cover up, if he honestly believes nothing is or was ever wrong. I suppose it is possible they do not ALL know, but I have no doubt that Oakes and Nelson and Hinkley and others knew/know about all of the lies they continue to try so hard to keep covered up to this very day.

And, Yes, the McLellen papers, I do remember reading all of that too. They were terrified of the possibility of those things seeing the light of day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 11:40AM by think4u.

was a fraud.

The only reason they were so anxious to aquire and HIDE the documents as fast as possible is that they KNEW Joe Smith. They knew he was a fraud. They knew these documents could be valid, so they tried to buy and hide them. At any cost. They were very afraid.

Had they ANY faith in Joe's character, they would have laughed at the documents, and challenged Hoffman to prove them as real. After all, an honest prophet of god would not have anything to to with salamanders. "Go ahead Mark, publish them. We know Joe, and we know these documents can not be valid."

But, they do know the true character of Joe, so they went after the documents with everything they had. Their actions speak very loud, much louder than the fake blubbering they display every six months during conference.

They obviously are not inspired, but they do know Joe all too well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 11:43AM by danboyle.

Thanks for sharing. Interesting insight I had given no thought to before.

I'm not so sure they KNOW he was a fraud. But at the very least, their actions show that they are afraid JS might have been a fraud. To me it showed that they are fearful that perhaps they too have been duped by the JS story.

What the Hoffman affair made me think was what other authentic stuff the church has in the vault and what has been "accidentally" destroyed over the years; the apologists love to say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but what about evidence that's been hidden on purpose? Must be the Holy Ghost protecting the membership.....

I also wonder how much interference the church has put out that keeps a movie about the Hoffman murders from being made. HBO, where are you?

I think these are the top 2, but for me this one is bigger because it is more current, and because it deals with something every mo understands, the power of discernment given to the righteous through the power of the HG. Certainly these men were righteous so how could they be duped. Any mo can see the problem in an instant, I guess they just close their eyes and ears to it.

The BOA IS a HUGE gun, but it takes some study to really get it, and the apologists seem more easy to lie about it, like "Well, we don't have the right segment of the papyri", well of course they do, but mo's just need one quick excuse and that will do. Also, the whole BOA translation story is so far removed from our day, I think people tend to dismiss issues with it easier. But if one puts in the time to study, then yes the BOA may be the biggest gun of all, JMO.