So here's a short history of me. Born in CA and raised in the church, President of Deacons, Teachers, etc etc etc. Graduated last summer, but decided to work for a little. So I applied to get into BYU Winter Semester (and it was the only place I applied. Well, BYU-I too, but same thing) and got in. But here's the thing. In between then and now I've looked into the history and done some research, and like everyone else here, believe it to be false. Is going to BYU going to be impossible for me to do? I've heard it's not as terribly Mormony as people make it out to be, and that most of the people there aren't your stereotypical uptight Mormon dorks. I'm also going to be rooming with a friend who is a cool guy and isn't one of the mentioned stereotypical Mormons.

The thing is that you are required to have a good attendance for church. I don't have a problem just living a lie for 3 hours every Sunday. I can just sleep through the meetings. And I'll probably only go 2/4 or 3/4 Sundays of the month and say I'm not feeling well for the others. I also plan on declining any callings/talks by saying I am having a really tough semester and need to focus on my studies.

I've heard (albeit from Mormon sources) that BYU is looked upon as a strong Academic school by the outside world, so that's a plus. Except that any employers will instantly think, "Oh, a Mormon."

Will I be too horribly stunted social-wise up there? In high school I was one of "popular" kids and never had too much of a problem making friends. Take in mind I'm not going to be at BYU saying Mormonism is a crock and such. If people start having religious discussions I just won't participate and make up excuses for other stuff. But if people ask I'm going to tell them I don't plan on serving a mission.

Any thoughts or advice? If I can't stand things up there then I will just transfer to a different college after this semester. Thanks!

haha: "I've heard (albeit from Mormon sources) that BYU is looked upon as a strong Academic school by the outside world, so that's a plus."
And Eagle Scout will let you get any job your heart desires.

Only Mormons think that BYU has a good reputation. As the reputation of the mormon church gets worse and worse, so will that of BYU. Also, you should consider this. If you leave the church or get excommunicated before you graduate, you're shit outta luck. I left the church in my senior year. I came out a year later, so I'm NOT ALLOWED TO FINISH MY DEGREE AT BYU, AND THEY WON'T GIVE ME A REFUND. Also I was required to take a useless religion class every semester and you can't transfer those credits to a REAL University. It's a HORRIBLE place, filled with self righteous ass-holes. The Professors are either delusional, or hypocritical, sell-outs. I was VERY popular and social at BYU, and there is not a friend that I made there who is still in my life. I don't want to freak you out, but you should maybe go to a Junior College in California until you can apply and be accepted into a REAL University.

....Of course you can't finish once you've done that. Didn't you think of that before you acted???

BYU has the worst mormons and the best ones. You can find the nonstereotypical mormons if you're looking for them. Where you live will play a large difference on who you're around, in my 1st apartment, the whole place was run with toolbags, then I moved to a house west of campus and people didn't bother us. The ward was really laid back and didn't see hometeachers the rest of time that I lived in Provo. It is commonplace at BYU to bag on Utah and Utah Mormons, which is kind of annoying.

I don't go to BYU but have friends who do. Lets just say in the whole city of Provo it is probably the second highest mormon population next to Rexburg. You better stay away from Sex, Alcohol, coffee and anything else or you will get kicked out of the school. Very strict. Mine as well just live at home because all the rules are kind of like living with parents.

I have two degrees from BYU, and now that I'm non-Mo and unemployed, they're both completely worthless. Forget it, dude.

Plus, the Mormons were insufferable to me, even as a TBM myself.

You are from California: you will have HORRIBLE culture shock!
I was raised in a big city: 3 million +, and I HATED Provo, HATED the uber-TBM culture I found there, and thought the place was a shithole full of narrow-minded hicks and rubes who, if they could be said to be moving in any direction at all, would be DEVOLVING. I never heard so much racist talk in my life--it was SHOCKING. I never saw so much peer-pressure CONFORMISM in my life. I never saw so many people determined to have no fun in life EVER.

BYU can only be compared to a Hitler Youth Camp. Start learning to goose-step and yell "Heil Monson!" now, if you're determined to go there.

And academically, they are so low in U.S. rankings that you might as well stay in California, start at a community college, and transfer to a UC or CSU school later. I guarantee you'll get as good an education OR BETTER. University of California has some GREAT campuses, anything you want to study! Why not go to a highly rated UC school and get a REAL, USEFUL education rather than a place that is just a training center for future TBM Nazis??? You'll have a hard time transferring credits if you decide to leave later...

I have two kids in college, and my advice to you is this. Start with the non-church school, because you're already focused too much on "If they do this, then I'll do this..." You're probably more likely to get kicked out for drinking, sex, non-belief than a TBM anyway and BYU credits do not transfer well to other universities. And, some of BYU's rules are petty. Knowing the truth, you may find it harder than you think to adhere.

Ask yourself, "What would I be doing INSTEAD of attending TSCC meetings, taking religion classes, etc., if I attended a non-church school?" In other words, what are you trading for your time and silence? How about,instead, networking with students and faculty who may advance your life/career at a well-respected university? How about just having some fun?

BYU is not highly esteemed for the most part in academia, contrary to what you're hearing from TBM's. Why not apply to schools you actually want to attend and work for a year to pay (apply toward) for tuition?

Just my 2 cents.

Despite completing all the course requirements and attending graduation, he was denied a BYU diploma because he created the Men on a Mission Calendar.

http://chadhardy.com/meet_the_legal_team.html

If they can be so petty with Mr. Hardy and deny him his diploma after he completed all the work required, they could do the same to you for some other nonsensical reason.

Is that really the sort of School you would want to go to?

I would suggest you go to a non-religious school that does have a good reputation in regards to academics and a good reputation for encouraging free and critical thinking.

Not an option. The whole campus is one big religious discussion.

If you plan to distance yourself from TSCC as time goes by, you don't want to saddle yourself with a BYU transcript. I have two degrees from BYU (a BA and and MA) and they haunt me even though they are in a field that even rational people believe is a strong area for the Y.

indeed liked to see BYU degrees, because it meant the poor kid knew how to obey orders without questioning, and worked as hard as possible.

Those grads weren't picked for creative thinking or skills, however.

You are barely out of the mold. You run the risk still of becoming really angry when the depth of the scam hits home with you. Having it shoved down your throat can be pretty hard to bear if that happens.

I wouldn't do it. You have too much to lose if something goes wrong.

There are some great 2 year schools with excellent teachers, then you can transfer.

Hmmm I probably should have made this thread sooner... haha. Considering classes start at the start of next week. I will probably end up attending because it's only for 4 months.

I do feel like a chump though for not better researching how the school is actually seen in the real world. My dad showed me lots of charts of how esteemed BYU is and the % of graduates who get high paying jobs and whatnot. But I should have looked at things for myself.

A good ol boy network of sorts



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 06:56PM by MJ.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 06:55PM by MJ.

Do you really want to attend a college where people think coffee should be illegal?
I'm not making a joke...The people at BYU tend to be naive, square, and delusional. If you violate the honor code and are caught, you will be kicked out or placed on probation.
You also are required to take classes on the BOM and D&C to graduate.

You money is better spent at another college.

Your greatest risk will be being "caught." If caught you will not graduate.

Caught means almost anything can get you kicked out. Do not underestimate the technology that will be used on you. Have you heard of the laptop initiative? Do you know what Sophos is? Have you seen the security cameras littered all over campus?

Check this site on a school computer or you school-issued laptop and you're done. Look at porn you're done. The "honor code" you sign is a giant legal waiver of your rights and of due process.

You will be spied on much much more than most students know until it is too late. I know this for a fact, I was once the watcher. BYU and BYU-I have an arsenal of security management tools and they use them very effectively.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 05:29PM by The Man in Black.

Little John,

Heed our advice: Get out of there as quickly as you can arrange, transfer credits, and move to just about anywhere. It turns out that BYU has little to no respect among non-Mormons and informed people. (I think even Yakima Valley Community College has a better reputation than BYU.) The BYU experience is best left to people who live in their insular world of happy Mormonism. Nothing spells "provincial" like both Mormon and BYU.

Meanwhile, you have to walk the walk or you may find all your invested time for naught. If you fall away, they will not transfer your credits or give you a transcript.

Discover the world! It's great, and so much happier and bright without the spectre of Mormon fraudulence and control. Discover red wine and Starbucks, you poor lad!

Incidentally should you go I can also tell you the means by which you can vanish from the school
SMS systems. It begins with an operating system that the church has banned thier employees from using (really).

It should come as no surprise that the "Church" would ban what it can't control. It is no wonder that they ban their employees from using Linux.

Employees of the Morg (not the schools, I'm talking about the ones that work in the church office building and Harriman) are issued Windows OS machines and they are monitored with Sophos. They receive remiders every few months via email that they are not to install thier own operating systems and in particular they are not to use Linux.

While I know this from primary sources it may prove difficult to provide documentation. I'll try though. The problem is that my information source is someone whom I do not wish to harm and in his own words, the Church has a "one strike you're out" policy.

Here's some mormon propaganda related to BYU, dated October 2010, and focusing on financial aspects, and on successful BYU graduates:

http://ldsinformation.net/2010/10/04/financial-times-the-rise-of-a-new-generation-of-mormons/

Excerpt:

"The church subsidises entry, so LDS students pay only about $5,000 a year, one-tenth of what full-paying students at Ivy League colleges do. In some ways, BYU looks every inch an elite American institution. In others it is starkly different: the day I visit, the campus is at a standstill for a sermon from a church elder. I have come to meet Kim Smith and Jim Engebretsen, two former executives at Goldman Sachs and Lehman Brothers and now both professors at BYU’s Marriott School of Business. Smith says Mormons were rare on Wall Street when he first got a job in the early 1980s. But, as he puts it, “banks like nothing more than finding an undervalued stock. And Mormon graduates were just that: a stock which was cheaper to buy, and which over-performed.”

Engebretsen uses a different analogy: Michael Lewis’s baseball book, Moneyball. “Remember how Lewis talks about how the Oakland A’s would find a second-rounder, and bring him in the first round instead? He’d perform way better. The same is true for someone at BYU. If they think this is their chance to play in the big leagues, they are going to work really, really hard.”
They are also going to get more support, from family and community. I’d seen piles of free wedding magazines near the dining hall, and no wonder: about half of BYU students are married when they graduate. A professor who asked not to be named says: “Being married, perhaps already having a family, makes you more serious about life. It’s OK to tell your parents your grades aren’t good, but try explaining it to your spouse.”
Smith argues that church membership smooths out other hassles, too. During his time at Goldman Sachs, he was asked to move to Tokyo, “a completely alien culture”. But, he says, “I was made to feel part of the LDS community within days. Because I felt comfortable, and my family felt comfortable, and I was more effective at work.” McAdams tells a similar story, of first arriving in New York for graduate school: “My wife and I packed up a van and drove our stuff across country. When we showed up at our place, there were 15 people there to help us unload. We’d never met any of them before, but they moved us in and invited us over for dinner. We had an instant social network.” He found that this same church network also provided helpful connections, both within his own law firm and to other people in the same industry."
----------- [end excerpt]

Basically, they're saying that if you sell your integrity, and if you are male (and preferably white), you can do quite well with a BYU education. And you can make use of BYU networking opportunities to fit yourself into "corporate culture."

Exerpt:

In the meantime, the calls are coming from headhunters. Scott Nycum, a managing director at JPMorgan, confirmed that BYU is now seen as a top source of graduate talent: “These students are bright, mature, well-educated, share our emphasis on adhering to highest standards of integrity, have impressive work ethic and are very team-oriented,” he says. “They fit extremely well with our firm’s corporate culture.”...
     The last century saw a Mormon conquest in America. During our lifetimes, we may see the rest of the world follow, too. [end second excerpt]

...is that BYU is not so much esteemed in the outside world as it is tolerated. Barely. There is no special advantage in going there.

You have some wonderful schools in California. If you end up at Cal, UCLA, etc. you will have a nationwide network of contacts. If I were you, I'd transfer back ASAP. Until then, take some VERY transferrable credits (Freshman English, etc.) and go have some fun snowboarding.

The remark from Scott Nycum is disingenious. Wall Street values an Ivy League education. Period. Everything else is merely tolerated. IMO.

I graduated from high school in Calif and then went to BYU, from which I graduated with a degree in finance and went on to law school. That was 37 years ago. Dumbest thing I ever did was attend the Y. It was so provincial and narrow that I was shocked when I got to a west coast law school and saw what a real college was like. Looking back now it is clear that I should have stayed home in Calif. and attended a UC or state campus. I left TSSC over 30 years ago but the degree from BYU has followed me around my whole career. I kept getting such disdain from clients and fellow lawyers about my BYU degree that I finally took it down and relegated it to the archive junk pile in the basement of our building. It was an embarrassment. Given the chance to repeat my early years I would not attend BYU. It didn't help me all that much in my career and has been a hinderance on lots of occassions. Good luck with your time in Provo, I hated the place.

One semester at BYU changed me from a total TBM to a total apostate. I didn't even need to read anything remotely anti either.

It was everything I disliked about mormonism times 10. I couldn't wait to get out of there.

I did make a good friend there though. If you're out there Jim Happy New Year!

I got my BS (06) and MS (08) degrees from BYU, both in electrical engineering. Now I'm at a relatively prestigious, secular private school for my PhD. Whatever deficiencies there might have been in my training, it hasn't kept me from keeping up with my peers at my present institution.

Academically, BYU is just fine on the whole. It's not Juilliard or MIT or Harvard, not even close, but for most degrees it's on par with a solid public university. Most of my friends who didn't pursue graduate school found decent jobs relatively easily, and my friends who did were able to get into competitive programs. The idea that BYU is regarded at the level of a community college outside Mormondom is absurd and simply not true. (If you get your degree in religious education or marriage/family development, your degree WILL be close to useless, but that's another matter entirely.)

Having said all that, BYU is a terrible environment for someone who doesn't believe. You have to do much more than simply show up at church every week. You have to maintain "worthiness" in they eyes of your bishop, interviewing with him each year. You have to take religion classes, writing essays and participating in class discussions about "the gospel". (And guess what happens if you show signs of apostasy!) Mo-ism is weaved into just about every class possible. Most of the girls (assuming you're male and straight; if you are gay oh god get the hell out) will be interested in relationships with a short-term view towards engagement and (temple!) marriage. Plenty of people graduate without getting married (I was one), but the pressure to marry young pervades BYU culture.

You can find people with non-dogmatic views about politics and Mo-ism, but even then it will be hard to integrate if you aren't a believer. Even those with liberal views tend to have some core of "a testimony"; even those I knew who were willing to challenge church policy on Prop. 8, for example, still believed that Mo-ism was "true". I did have a friend who was a closet skeptic. I didn't find out until after we both graduated, but I did know that she was having a miserable time trying to fit in.

And if all of that doesn't convince you, consider this: you'll have to spend your whole time worrying about getting found out. You have to make sure you put up a convincing front to your bishop. You have to make sure you don't log in to exmormon.org using a campus computer. You have to make sure none of your BYU friends (all of whom are encouraged to rat you out) find out that you really don't believe. If you are found out, you very likely will be dismissed from the university. I can't imagine putting up with that for four years.

The truth is, if you got into BYU, you probably can get into a more prestigious school that won't police your private beliefs and actions. I'd ignore objections from family and friends and transfer as soon as possible.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2010 10:26PM by mateo.

I saY go ahead and go. Sometimes we have to be hit over the head really hard with experience before we pull our head out of our ass.

Of course my philosophy now is to learn from other's experiences, but if that doesn't sway you, a good dose of less freedom than you had in high school will suffice or people spying and ratting on you; not being able to speak your mind and use critical thinking skills (which is what college is all about); BOM classes which are a waste of time and money; being treated less than by chics 'cause you're not an RM, and lastly, the pressure of having to live a lie.

Mormonism is a joke religion. Not a ha ha joke like a "priest and a rabbi walked into a bar". NO. Mormonism is the punch line to endless jokes about stupid people who believe stupid things. You will never really know that until you LEAVE mormonism and hear what people have been saying about it when you are not around. BYU is the equivalent of going to Liberty University or Bob Jones. Of course there are very talented people who have gone there BUT no one....NO ONE outside of UTAH will ever consider hiring you without wondering "what the hell is wrong with this guy?" They will consider you some kind of religious fanatic with a third rate education and probably hire someone else.

The mormon church spends HUGE amounts of effort to convince their members that the outside world things they are "normal". Most people think you have 7 wives and belong to a church that forbids dancing. In truth...most people can't tell the difference between the jehovah's witnesses, scientology, and mormonism. They just know they are all weird. When it comes to getting a job, do you really want your application to say "religious nutball?"

Little John, there is still time for you to fill out the Common App and look at a few other schools. This is your education, and it will shape your thinking. Going to BYU will expose you to fewer ideas, not challenge you in the same way, and because you are going in undercover (a non-believer) you will not have the same open-minded/look at it from another perspective experience (the BYU professor may have something valuable to offer but you dismiss it because you feel religion and not logic dominates his thinking). College should be about teaching you to think. Don't sell yourself short. If you do end up at BYU, plan to apply for the Winter semester somewhere else, before you fall in love, reconsider and become part of it, get yourself into trouble and loose credits (the honor code can be your undoing- while at BYU I was threatened with a church court for masturbation, and at one point called into the standards office because I had paid a library fine late). Extricate yourself from this situation as quickly as you can!

Keep in mind that a BYU degree will follow you, on your resume, for your entire career and people will always make certain assumptions. As an employer, I would suggest that you might want to avoid putting yourself in that position.

You have an excellent state university system in California, use it.

Interesting question.

On the one hand, sure, go for a semester, room with your buddy. BYU is full of a whole range of believers. Not all are rightwing, militant, GA-worshipping folks. Lots of normal people who happen to be Mormons are there too.

Provo is a beautiful city, the mountains look different every hour of the day as the sun and clouds wander through. And if you're going to university to study, it's not a bad place.

But, you don't want a degree from there. Luckely you don't need to decide this just yet.

I have two degrees from there, in Botany/Ecology, a perfectly reputable field, I was never in a class where anyone questioned evolution, only had a few fruity profs that weren't upright and professional with research first, religious beliefs second. (This was 20 years ago, though).

But the thing that really bugs me about those degrees, and the time spent in Utah, is that most everyone I've met and ever will meet wonders if I'm Mormon.

That's not entirely bad in and of itself, but it's complicated that there's a zillion different opinions about Mormonism, and you need to second guess if any given person likes Mormons, hates Mormons, thinks all Mormons are fruits, etc.

Here's a few examples --
* The Mo Church funded the Prop 8 business. Unforgivable to many people, and they're not going to want to associated with anyone sympathetic to the Mos.
* Mos don't have sex. Ever. Unless their hitched. Do you want everyone wondering if you're one of those strange folks that didn't get laid in university?
* Mos have a Boy Scout, Republican, solid citizen reputation. If the person you're talking to is older, white, etc., then it's not so bad and you don't want to downplay your Mormon background.
* The Mo church really puts its people through the wringer when they leave. There's now probably more exmos in this world than Mos, and so lots and lots of nevermos have had close friends try to get out of the Mo church. So they view the church as being a wacko cult.
* Lots of folks grew up with Mo neighbors. Some liked them, some didn't.

What do you think about the Jehovah's Witnesses? Fruitcakes? Cult? If you have a degree from BYU and have spent 4 yrs of your life in Utah then realize that everyone you ever meet will probably view you as a bit of a curiosity. From a secretive cult, escaped, yes. But, still brainwashed? They'll wonder...

Be sure to report back and tell us what happens. From a Kinkos computer, if necessary.
RG

(BTW I went on to get another graduate degree from UC Davis, and spent time at the University of BC. Both are great schools, low tuition, and the undergrads there all seemed to be having a fine experience)

Drop it. Go to a local college for one or two semesters. Think it through and go to a real school.

It's not a place for non-believers. You won't have a good experience there. I did seven years there between undergrad and law school. If you don't believe, you will be miserable.

That said, please do not do what so many of the posters above are suggesting and just go to community college. BYU is not a community college. Look at the rankings and do the research. If you can get in there, you can get in somewhere else. Goldman Sachs recruits at BYU. It doesn't recruit at your local JC. Do yourself a favor and go to the best school you can get into.

Don't know if you were including me in that slam on community colleges or not, but I didn't say he should be satisfied with a certificate from a JC.

California has an excellent statewide program that requires CSU and UC universities to accept qualified transfer students from California community colleges into their undergrad programs, providing they have completed the appropriate lower division coursework and satisfied all the other requirements. Thus, many institutions in California's community college network are responsible for a high-quality academic program and regularly channels students into the university system. Colleges like City College of San Francisco (CCSF) and others have developed a great reputation as "feeder schools" sending qualified students to UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UC San Francisco, SFSU, even on to private universities like USF and Stanford.

If the OP can't get into the UC or CSU systems on his first application it is as viable an option for him as it has been for many others.

I wouldn't let BYU/LDS Inc. sniff a dime of my tuition money. That's all I have to say about that.

I'd like to comment on the following statement:


"I've heard it's not as terribly Mormony as people make it out to be..."

Compared to what? The Mormon Church exercises more control over Brigham Young University than other religously affiliated colleges and universities out there. The professors at BYU are not allowed to run afoul of "the brethren." The whole social life is fully intertwined with the LDS church. I attended BYU, and I've attended American University (a Methodist affiliated university). The level of Mormoniness at BYU by far exceeds the Methodistiness of American.

in the arts. I had friends in my major who did graduate work at other schools. They felt that the classes and teachers at BYU (in my field) were far superior.

However, it did come at a price of dealing with a school administration that wanted to meddle in their personal lives, putting up with religion classes and religious craziness (missionary work and personal boundary violations by peers, ecclesiastical endorsements, etc). THAT was something that left a negative impression on both of them.

I personally wish I had a different school on my resume. BYU screams "Mormon!" when I would rather just let my diploma scream "competent!" Having a BYU my diploma almost INVITES religion into a professional discussion where it just doesn't belong.

BYU was one of the schools I considered. I visited the campus with a friend who attended BYU. I knew right away I'd never be able to hack it at the "Y".

Being from NY I had never seen so many Mormons. Don't get me wrong I love Mormons but for some reason I knew I'd never make it there. I could feel the impulse to cause trouble.

I ended up at a small Presbyterian affiliated school in the Midwest. The influence from the Church was almost non-existent. It was somewhat a party school. It had some annoying rules for freshman and sophomores...had to live on campus, no drinking on campus...but you could smoke in some classes!

I worried about not attending a school that had instant name recognition but I could be myself without worrying about being kicked out...just keep my GPA up and not do anything outrageous.

Every school has its crappy aspects. Ours was being a dumping ground for rich guys that didn't cut it at the Ivy League schools and were accepted on a probationary basis. Give me a campus load of Mormons any day over those guys.

My friend graduated from BYU and has done very well in the nuclear energy field. Many of his co-workers are Y grads as well. He's always felt his Y degree is well respected.

He did strongly recommend off-campus housing however.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 01:45PM by verdacht.