Ok, I have to be very careful because I still need to remain anonymous, but, I am seeking advice here. I left TSCC about 2 years ago, but, only told this GA about it last year. He is a very close family friend. We were in the same Ward for a very long time, before he became a GA and he has kept in touch with me.

Out of respect for me, he is taking the time to read up on the big issues I have and acts like none of them are a big deal. He just keeps sending me old FAIR articles and such. There is no question that he is still TBM, yet, he knows the issues that exposed the fraud. It doesn't make any sense to me. He is twice my age and I want to respect him, but, he sounds so brainwashed and makes silly connections. How can he still believe when he knows all the crap?

For example: He asked me how I am dealing with the plethora of archeological evidence certifiably PROVING the Book of Mormon was accurate. What is he talking about???

He keeps telling me that he has this 'inside view' and talks with the Top 15 privately, quite often, and as a result of these 'sacred experiences' he has no doubt they are true Apostles of God.

Any advice on how I could interact with him without him constantly pulling the 'Trump card' on me? I always respected him and he really is being very good to me and I don't want to ruin the relationship.

Mormonism has really screwed with my head and relationships...

Is he really being that good to you? From this post it sounds like he is just bein a giant douche telling you that you have go believe him with NO evidence. He keeps throwing authority, unsubstantiated claims, and FAIR articles at you (with no analysis of his own, I presume?) Hoping you come back and pay tithing.

Don't mistake a smiling face and a soft voice for being benign and kind.

Also, he can claim there is evidence, but make him demonstrate some of it. I can claim all day long that there is a mountain of evidence for a lunar teapot, doesn't make it true.

That which is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

It is great to have an intellectual conversation where evidence is discussed, but that isn't what this sounds like. It sounds like a pseudoscientific conversation where the existence of evidence is being argued.

Push him for specifics. When he tells you about 'special experiences' with the 15, push him for detail. When he talks about BoM evidence, push him for detail. He's likely used to TBMs holding on to his every word and never questioning.

If he's really genuinely concerned for your salvation, he'll be happy to help, even if it means he has to tell you about his special experiences...which should really be part of the course for a special witness.

sherlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Push him for specifics. When he tells you about
> 'special experiences' with the 15, push him for
> detail. When he talks about BoM evidence, push him
> for detail. He's likely used to TBMs holding on to
> his every word and never questioning.
>
> If he's really genuinely concerned for your
> salvation, he'll be happy to help, even if it
> means he has to tell you about his special
> experiences...which should really be part of the
> course for a special witness.

I push him constantly on specifics. With spiritual experiences, he admits that they are personal and cannot prove or disprove the truth claims to me. I can tell he's frustrated that I am not 'feeling' the same as I used to about it all. But, he is genuinely concerned for me. So, he has shared several of his most unique experiences. They are not convincing to me. He is a close enough family friend that if I were to tell him that I don't want to talk about it anymore, he would respect that and remain a friend. But, I DO want to talk about it. I want answers and he's giving me fluff and apologetic crap!

It's because there aren't answers, he doesn't have them because they don't exist.

brandywine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's because there aren't answers, he doesn't have
> them because they don't exist.


I agree. I think I just want some sort of validation or something. I just want him to admit that there are no answers. He never tries to 'bear testimony' and he really is TRYING to give me 'logical answers'. I feel bad for him because I know there are not any logical answers because it's a fraud.
I know I'm right and he's wrong, but, he's older and has the 'inside perspective'. My family know that I talk to him frequently and I just want him to say, "[thewhyalumnus] has got legitimate reasons to have left Mormonism." Instead, they all are waiting for him to convince me, which clearly isn't happening. I just feel alone in a sea of true believers...

But you aren't alone. You are in a sea with the rest of us here.

brandywine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But you aren't alone. You are in a sea with the
> rest of us here.

Thank you. I really think I'm messed up in the head right now because I'm not a cryer and this made me tear up. I really hate Mormonism a lot!

"My family know that I talk to him frequently and I just want him to say, "[thewhyalumnus] has got legitimate reasons to have left Mormonism." Instead, they all are waiting for him to convince me, which clearly isn't happening."

See if you can get him to admit that there really is no evidence or compelling,logical argument, to be convinced by.

Get him to admit that is it all based on personal experience and personal faith.

Then expalin that a personal experience is just that....personal. It doesn't transfer to you and compel you to claim the experience for yourself if you aren't having it.

Personal experience and faith can lead to believing the spaceship is behind the comet and its time to get on board.

brandywine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's because there aren't answers, he doesn't have
> them because they don't exist.


Exactly. You want something that he can't give you. You already have the answers. You're hoping that he can dispute them, but he can't. Knowing these things and yet holding onto a testimony requires the ability to keep those problems on a shelf and just have faith.

Those of us who have left, just can't do that anymore.

According to the current church narrative, Joseph wasn't afraid to tell anyone that he had seen God, Christ, and angels. I would point this out to him and suggest that NOTHING is so sacred that you can't talk about it. In fact, if Smith is to be looked at as an example, current leaders MUST share the details of their "special witnesses". Ask him if there is any reason to believe that ANY man sustained as prophet/seer/revelator has seen Christ or received revelation/prophecy in the last 170 years.

We know for a fact that Joe was a liar and an adulterer. No apologist can dispute those facts. They can claim that God commanded Joe to lie, and that his adultery was justified because God said so, but he was still a liar and an adulterer. Ask your friend if he would sustain Monson as prophet/seer/revelator if he learned that he was practicing polygamy in secret and publicly denying it. Would he sustain him if Monson came to his 14 year old daughter and promised his entire family exaltation if he would just let him sleep with his daughter?

You already know you can't use logic or facts on these people. They simply can't put the pieces together to build the same reality that we do.

Personal testimonies, even at his level, as easily dismissed. Even suicide bombers have personal testimonies. It doesn't make them right.

I think this is the time to pull back and see if you have any relationship with him that isn't based on the church, and on his position of authority within it. Whether or not you do, it's time to simply go to the big picture. You've studied a lot of impartial facts and used your intelligence to come to a different conclusion than him. He'll have to live with you both disagreeing - or not.

Heresy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think this is the time to pull back and see if
> you have any relationship with him that isn't
> based on the church, and on his position of
> authority within it. Whether or not you do, it's
> time to simply go to the big picture. You've
> studied a lot of impartial facts and used your
> intelligence to come to a different conclusion
> than him. He'll have to live with you both
> disagreeing - or not.


^^^ I agree. A real relationship should not be based on whether or not you believe in TSSC.

I have done this and he has clearly demonstrated that he will remain close to me no matter what.

But, he is TBM and a 'high up GA', so he will not give up trying to 'help me'. I'm making it more clear that I will most likely never come back and he respects that.

I continue to engage in the dialogue because I am having a hard time understanding why such a good and bright man wants to promulgate a lie. And, I guess maybe I would like for him to validate my choice to leave among all of my TBM family and friends. Probably just wishful thinking. Yeah, the Mormon brainwashing is still working on me. I just want them to OWN THE LIES! He meets with the Top 15 frequently and I hate that he can be so loving and friendly to me, when he knows that my issues are totally legit! I hate that I am the problem, instead of TSCC!!!! It's so lonely to be the only one out of TSCC, when my family is so TBM and so connected to the 'elite SLC leadership'...

Thanks for trying to help though. It's nice to know you and others are out there.

You want him, and the other believing members of your family to care -- to care that they're being lied to; to care that they're promoting a lie; to care that it's all made up; to care that they're investing their time and money in a clear fraud. The problem is, they don't care about any of that. Because the church works in their lives -- with bonus prizes for being friends with someone who is friends with important people. It validates them as being special. That's all they need and care about.

Lies, schmies. It doesn't matter.

And they're terribly uncomfortable that someone is not swimming in the same pool, doing the same laps as them. It bugs them. It makes them have uncomfortable thoughts. Could you please, just get back into the pool so they're not so uncomfortable? So they don't have to keep explaining why it's all good? No?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2014 02:20PM by Devoted Exmo.

I love the question, If the church were a fraud would you want to know?
It stops a discussion that will lead nowhere fast or starts a conversation of substance.

Mormon brainwashing; a big part of it is feeling "evil" if you say or do something that "damages a testimony". We've been trained to be in awe of these people for their position in the community.


The real problem is that he has the power (as a GA in TSCC) to possibly ruin you in this community (A community based on a scam). A community that in the big scheme of things isn't that important, but is hugely important to a multi generation Mormon who lives in the Mormon corridor.

Maybe you should stop worrying about what is going on in this guy's mind. He is either not persuaded by facts, or doesn't care about these facts because it's not in his own self interest to care.

I think the answer is to see your family friend for what he is; a third level player in a multi level marketing fraud. To live with himself he has convinced himself that what he's selling - everybody needs.

"He asked me how I am dealing with the plethora of archeological evidence certifiably PROVING the Book of Mormon was accurate. What is he talking about???"

He is talking about pseudo-archaeology, the kind being promoted by Rod Meldrum and others.

How in the world can any leader at his level direct intelligent people into known hoax artifacts and easily refuted claims? Does he think that frauds such as the Bat Creek Stone or the Newark Holy Stones will cause someone to believe the Book of Mormon?

Actual archaeological evidence is revealing the truth.
http://youtu.be/FbS10oEhw3c

You are so right. Thanks for the video link. I hate TSCC so much and yet, I love this Q 70 family friend. It makes me tired.

You really have to call him out. There is no other choice. on this board people constantly want that kind of chance, to meet and talk to some authority and call him out, and now it's your turn. you don't have to be impolite or anything, but you have to do it.

As said earlier please ask him to show you the specific archaeological evidence proving the BOM true, if he once mentions Rod Meldrum or FIRM you need to stop him right there and point blank tell him to stop insulting your intelligence.

Also just because he is twice your age doesn't mean you need to respect him, especially if he is espousing ideas you know to be false.

Remember his spiritual witness or testimony or whatever else you want to call it, should mean no more to you than does Oral Robert's, Ali Khamenei's, David Miscavige's, or any other "religious" leader's personal revelation.

Ask him what these proofs are. Tell him if he can show irrefutable proof to support the BoM, you are open to being convinced.

They have no proof, only excuses and rationalizations why there is no proof. When he points to articles about how horses are really deer, etc, explain to to him that these aren't really proofs to convince people, only rationalizations to convince people that are already convinced. Some of the so-called "proofs" are blatant frauds.

Ask for specifics. Always ask for specifics. The details never stand up to scrutiny.

DNA same story. They have no proof. They try to explain how it is still possible. (Like Jim Carey's character "So you're telling me there's a chance?")

“FairMormon is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FairMormon , and may represent the opinion of individual authors. While we strive to provide accurate, well documented information consistent with teachings of LDS leaders, material posted on this site should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.”

Hello Mr. GA. Not official whatsoever, not supported by the LDS church nor does any other accredited historical, archeological, or educational institution support these apologists who stand alone in their efforts to deceive the faithful.

In any institution outside the mormon bubble FAIR’s apologetics would be laughed right out of the house and done so with rock solid reasons.

FAIR rapes what LDS prophets have proclaimed, in print, prayers over the pulpit and in a multitude of publications and when they are done raping that they rape what the BOM clearly and unequivocally states.

And this is what an emotionally attached GA wants you to use to remain faithful?
Ask that GA what is the current OFFICIALLY signed and published positions from current day prophets on said issues?

What, crickets? No kidding!
When modern anthropologists who grew up in the church and who specialize in Central and South American anthropology call the likes of Daniel Peterson outright LIARS, just who the hell are we supposed to believe Mr. GA?

Zero evidence, nada, nothing whatsoever of any kind at all to support anything real left behind from the people in the BOM.

That is an archeological impossibility! Non mormon and honest mormon archeologists say it is impossible the anachronisms and plagiarisms aside.

Impossible. Can’t say that enough. Impossible. Impossible. Impossible.

The LDS church doesn’t support FAIR and its apologetics. That means apparently God doesn’t support it either or the church would let the world know God does support FAIR by making an official announcement.

Ask your GA, “Where exactly is the integrity in maintaining faith in claims made the BOM due to the lack of evidence alone and to a make it even worse how could anyone honestly utilize one word FAIR had to say about anything since their apologetics are only self-supported? ”

It's one thing to be on the defensive. You answering his questions and trying to answer his arguments. Since TMB arguments are based on nothing but feelings, there's no way you could do that without hurting the friendship.

If you can start on the offensive, perhaps things will change. I've used it on my parents, Stake President and other people. You ask them a couple of really good questions, like stuff you can find on the CES Letter.

Oh, you have no answer to that? Don't talk to me about the Church again untill you have a GOOD answer. Crappy apologetics and "ad-hoc theories" won't do. I don't want an excuse to believe, I want the truth.

"I don't want an excuse to believe, I want the truth."

That right there is a fantastic statement. I have not heard it put that short and concise before.

My answer to people that use these kind of arguments is…
Name one independent archeologist or institution that verifies any evidence for the Book of Mormon. Then my question to someone like this is…I don't believe in a god that is so punitive and focused on violence and war as the Book of Mormon suggests, killing entire cities because of the sins of some, or one who devises a gospel that supposedly has so many answers to the problems of life and then only delivers it to less than one tenth of one percent of his children while they are on the earth, or one who thinks the highest form of marriage is one where your wife spends most nights alone in bed, knowing that her husband is making love down the hall to other wives. And I don't believe in a God who colors generations of people with a dark skin as punishment for the sins of their ancestors. And the evidence clearly proves that Joseph Smith consistently showed a lifelong pattern of behavior of a con man (treasure digging, peep stones, D+C 132, promising untold riches to get people to put money into the Kirtland bank, promising salvation to whole families to get daughters to marry him, trying to sell the BofM copyright, the book of Abraham hoax translation, the failed translation of the fake Kinderhook plates,
claiming to find Adam and Eve's altar and then you never hear of it again, etc. etc. Nor do I believe in a God who makes people gay and then commit to having no intimacy for their entire existence on the earth. And the list just goes on an on.
Any way that is my suggestion, to take it way beyond just whether there is some pitifully weak evidence for the Book of Mormon.

Why is he giving you information from FAIR rather than answers from the brethren? Because of his fairly uncommon access to the top 15, he should have at his fingertips ***their*** official answers to all the troubling issues.

Is FAIR now an *official* spokesperson (spokesgroup?) for the brethren? According to a disclaimer on their own site, they are NOT:
==============
"FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided in the FAIR Journal and on the FAIR Web site (http://www.fairlds.org) are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."
==============

If FAIR is not an official source, why is a general authority sending you answers from men who are, without a doubt, speaking only as men when he has access to the Lord's anointed?

If he states there are no "official" answers, I'd ask why not? The brethren have two huge opportunities every year to address these issues at their General Conferences. They have a platform of multiple monthly magazines ("Ensign," "New Era," "Friend," and "Liahona") that go to the members' mailboxes and are published online as well, and they have endless area/regional and stake meetings they attend as celebrities where members hang on their every word. They are not lacking in opportunities to address the many troubling issues.

So why don't the brethren do it? If members are losing their testimonies and leaving because there are no answers, it's reasonable to think that the brethren would make providing OFFICIAL answers their top priority.

We know why they don't, but it would be fantastic to hear what one of the junior general authorities has to say about it.

Excellent! Totally agree.

I would ask him if he thinks you have legitimate reasons for leaving mormonism. When he says yes, I hope your recording device is running.

If he says yes, ask him why they won't acknowledge that to the rest of the members that are asking the same questions. After all, that would be the RIGHT thing to do. Instead they blow families apart, hold love courts, and make people miserable.

Holding people hostage will not work for them in the long run. I'm sure he would say that anyone is free to leave. That may be true, but if their reasons for leaving were validated, it wouldn't destroy so man lives when someone does leave.

There is nothing that can scratch the surface of the "spiritual witness" aka the "sacred experience. It's almosts solid and immovable.
The facts and evidences have no impact on a belief by faith.

If he wants to believe, that's his choice. He can do that. But that is about him. Not you.

Interestingly this is the same kind of faith based belief that other religious believer have about their choice in religion. It's almost always compartmentalized and closed up tight in a hermetically sealed little box.

My suggestion is to stop talking to him about the LDS Church.
You cannot penetrate that level of faith based beliefs.
The only time people consider something different is when they see a need or desire to do so. And, again, that's about them, not you.


The best method is to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

We can appreciate and enjoy people without ever knowing anything about their religious beliefs.

Maybe you can let him know that we'll just have to agree to disagree and close down the whole subject. Forever!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2014 03:12PM by SusieQ#1.

Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Q: why do the Mormon prophets pass on the most difficult questions to apologists?

When your buddy is next meeting with the 12, ask him to ask them how an ordinary member can know if a prophet is speaking for the Lord or just speaking as a man, when the prophet himself doesn't even know.

Site: Brigham Young teaching the Adam-God "theory".
Prophets teaching that blacks wouldn't get priesthood until ALL whites had.
Prophets teaching that ALL Indians and Polynesians are Lamanites.
& etc.

I had to step away from my computer for a little bit and came back to all this excellent advice. Thank you, everyone! I wish I could have you all over to my house for dinner or something. I think this was super therapeutic for me and I have a lot to think about. I will take into account everything you all have said.

For those of you who understand, when you are family or close friends with 'high up' GAs there really isn't one simple answer, nor one method of interaction that works every time. AND, you have to be super careful. They really could ruin my life. That is why I am being anonymous and vague about several things. I have also slightly altered a few things so no one could track me down.

But, I shared enough to get excellent advice from all of you. Thank you!

I am going to directly call him out on going outside his 'inside circle' (i.e. apologists, BYU profs, etc) to answer my questions. I am going to let him know that if he REALLY wants to be helpful to me:

1) Personal spiritual experiences are permanently invalid.
2) He must provide solid and specific examples for general 'proof' statements he makes.
3) I am only interested in official answers from the Top 15, whom he meets with regularly, and believes are prophets, seers, and revelators. I want direct, current answers from them and if they don't have them, ask them to pray about it for the sake of me and thousands of others who are using our God-given brains and disaffecting.

After that, I will most likely just follow SusieQ's advice and never talk about Mormonism, with him again. At some point, all of my family needs to permanently accept that I can never go back to a church that is certifiably false. I don't care about the 'elite status' of my family and close friends in TSCC.

I wish I could be more specific and tell you all who he is and share more details. Maybe at some point. But, he and others have told me that if I publicly share details of our private conversations, then they will no longer trust me. Trust is a big deal to me, which is why I left TSCC. I don't trust anything about Mormonism. But, I do love my TBM family and friends a lot.

You guys are awesome! I love RfM!

Eh, why bother with him. He's not going to change your mind and you're not going to change his. It's an excersize in futility on both your parts. In a way, it's actually nice to know that he cares about you enough to want you to come back, as misguided as he is.

So far no one has reached out to us, besides one family asking us if we'd please come to church that Sunday because their son got his mission call and it would mean a lot to them if we were there. Other than that, crickets.

It's nice to not be bothered, but at the same time I guess it's just a little hurtful that no one cared enough to even ask how we're doing or why we don't come anymore.

The next time you two meet, can you please ask him if any of the GAs, I mean ANY of them, volunteer to help clean their home ward buildings? Ever?

This issue is a sore spot with many here.