http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41866654/ns/world_news-europe/?GT1=43001

How thoughtful

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/03/02/general-eu-vatican-jews_8333880.html

"VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI's has tackled one of the most controversial and critical issues in Christianity in a new book, making a sweeping exoneration of the Jewish people in the death of Jesus Christ.

"In "Jesus of Nazareth," excerpts of which were released Wednesday, Benedict uses a biblical and theological analysis to explain why there is no basis in truth to claims that Jews as a whole were responsible for Jesus' death.

Interpretations to the contrary have been used for centuries to justify the persecution of Jews.

"While the Vatican has long echoed Benedict's conclusion, Jewish scholars said the argument laid out by the German-born pontiff, who has had his share of missteps with Jews, was significant and would help fight anti-Semitism today."

----

Sounds like the Pope's statements are meaningful to at least some Jews. It's the most ridiculous irrational thing I've ever heard to blame all Jews for the death of Christ. (Not least because it was supposedly part of the great plan. If Jesus wasn't crucified we're all doomed, according to Christian theology, right?)

This could well be a case of too little, too late, after all these years.

But at least the Pope speaks out and gives a concrete opinion or a learned statement. One of my big beefs with the Mormon crew is that they hide away and avoid ever making definitive remarks that anyone could try and hold them to. At least Catholics can point to the Pope's book and say this is what he thought about that subject. With GBH (prophet when I was in the Mormon Church) he called for members to "Stand for Something" but he was not a shining role model in that regard. Weasel words and flopsy-mopsy. That was GBH, at least in public. Not sure about Monson. I haven't paid him that much attention. From posts here through the years, I assume he's no different. The best way to avoid responsibility, they seem to think, is to avoid uttering any statements that could be used to hold them to account.

Wow, I didn't realize all Jews were responsible for Jesus' death. I thought it was just a handful of folks way back when. It sure is nice for the pope to forgive all Jews for something they had nothing to do with. I hope to someday receive forgiveness for the MMM.

Especially since Jesus was a Jew.

I don't know where people even get the idea that they Jews killed Jesus who was also a Jew.

Too much, too little, too late I'd say

So many progroms (in the name of Christ) could have been avoided :(

Jesus was a Jew after all.

Jesus' "Jewishness" was once pointed out to Hitler, to which he replied: "I decide who is Jewish". Ukay!

People, he is simply reiterating
what has been said over and over for the last half century by several popes. Also it is a part of a nbook and isn't supposed to be anythng new. Another misleading headline.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 07:53PM by bona dea.

Yes, the article does say that they have said this the past 50 years.

So I guess that means they forgave the Jews collectively 1,950 years too late instead of 2,000 years too late?

What I find depressing is that people allow popes the power to think they get to go around exonerating people in the first place.

By my magic pope ring power I exonerate you (and anti antisemitism will end)!

thanks for being literal.

I guess some people don't get irony.

Where does this weird guy wearing a ghost suit get off thinking he can exonerate anybody?

Jeeze, what a delusional loser, he and Warren Jeffs should get together.

lostinutah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where does this weird guy wearing a ghost suit get
> off thinking he can exonerate anybody?
>
> Jeeze, what a delusional loser, he and Warren
> Jeffs should get together.

Yeah, he just ignore anti Semitism and let it continue. Read the article, not just the headline

You totally missed my point, which is that the Pope and all these so-called "holy" men are just hairless monkeys like the rest of us. They're special only in the minds of their almost mindless followers. Who cares what he thinks, does, or says, except for the millions of religious followers he has that will do whatever he says to do.

I'm not a big fan of the Pope, but he was NOT "exonerating" Jews for Jesus' death, because the Catholic Church has already made that statement publicly before on numerous occasions. I believe he made the statement because, sadly, there are still a lot of anti-semitic ignoramuses in the world who will find any excuse to hate Jews. Anti-semitism is strongly on the rise again in Europe, unfortunately.

BTW, I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools for twelve years and never once heard anything remotely critical about Jews (or of any faith), let alone that they "killed Jesus." Obviously, the Catholic Church can never atone for the great evil of allowing people to believe for centuries that Jews supposedly were collectively responsible for killing Jesus, but it is simply not a teaching or belief of the modern Catholic church.

Incidentally, I have had several Muslims tell me, when we discuss religion, "You know they [Jews] killed your god, right?" I guess they think that is a way to somehow bond with Christians or people from a Christian background--over shared anti-semitism?

in light of the Christian Dior incident.

maybe it wasn't delusional (in this case) but meant to try to put old shit to bed.

I appreciate your comment.

NeverMo in CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not a big fan of the Pope, but he was NOT
> "exonerating" Jews for Jesus' death, because the
> Catholic Church has already made that statement
> publicly before on numerous occasions. I believe
> he made the statement because, sadly, there are
> still a lot of anti-semitic ignoramuses in the
> world who will find any excuse to hate Jews.
> Anti-semitism is strongly on the rise again in
> Europe, unfortunately.
>
> BTW, I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic
> schools for twelve years and never once heard
> anything remotely critical about Jews (or of any
> faith), let alone that they "killed Jesus."
> Obviously, the Catholic Church can never atone for
> the great evil of allowing people to believe for
> centuries that Jews supposedly were collectively
> responsible for killing Jesus, but it is simply
> not a teaching or belief of the modern Catholic
> church.
>
> Incidentally, I have had several Muslims tell me,
> when we discuss religion, "You know they killed
> your god, right?" I guess they think that is a way
> to somehow bond with Christians or people from a
> Christian background--over shared anti-semitism?

That is exactly my point which Scooter and Dagny as usual missed. Anti Semitism has a long and sad history in Catholicism and in Protestantism as well.That is for Protestants. Martin Luther hated Jews as did many other Protestants and they have no right to criticze Catholics for doing the same thing they were doing.. What do you expect this pope or any other pope to do They can't change history. What happened, happend and they should get credit for doing something now.BTW, this is a small part of the 2nd volumn of the pope's book on Jesus and isn't supposed to be anything new.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 07:54PM by bona dea.

It's sad that a religious leader needs to tell people not to hate other people and that followers depend on religion to tell them who are friends or foes.

You were not the only one to read the article.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 08:15PM by dagny.

I don't see anybody here directly criticizing the current Pope for this.

The article I excerpted above clearly stated that this is not a recent occurrence, that the Catholic Church has retracted the "Christ-killer" mantra and that the current revisit of this topic is because this Pope has just written a book about it.

Again, it is the headline in the articles cited that characterizes this as the Pope exonerating the Jews, not any posters here who have indicated they don't know it's not a new idea from this Pope. Headline writers kind of do that, stretch a point to create an attention-grabber. In a way, you could say the headline applies, in that this Pope is bringing attention to the matter again and by extension, what he has written to explain the issues reiterates that Catholicism has "exonerated" the Jews in this regard.

I think that criticism for wrong-doing is always appropriate. It is a good idea, though, to be fully knowledgeable about the bigger picture. In this case, it is that while we are goring someone else's sacred cow we should be aware that ours are (1) not immune from criticism and (2) as flawed as anybody else's sacred cows.

It is apparent throughout history that oppressors rise up and despite their own horrific experiences of oppression, go on to oppress others when they gain the power. This includes Protestants, of course, and some of the biggest idols and role models, such as Luther, indeed.

That was pretty disillusioning to me when I found out. However, because Luther had major flaws doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize wrong where we see it.

Again, in this case, I don't think anybody is overtly criticizing the Pope on this one. I don't think there's an expectation about what he should do on this issue. I've said that at least he comes out and makes a clear statement about what he believes (and perhaps what the C. Church teaches?) That's a positive from me.

Meanwhile, though, no matter what anybody in the past and present have got up to, I reserve the right to criticize or offer an opinion on any of them, Catholic, Protestant or none of the above.

Both links above go to articles that used that headline. It wasn't Scooter's statement or mine.

As Dagny said, it's not new in the Catholic Church (but not all that old, relatively speaking, either) that they have taken Jews off the hook on that one, so to speak.

This is the article I linked to above:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/03/02/general-eu-vatican-jews_8333880.html

Excerpt:

"While the Vatican has long echoed Benedict's conclusion, Jewish scholars said the argument laid out by the German-born pontiff, who has had his share of missteps with Jews, was significant and would help fight anti-Semitism today."

If Jewish scholars think it'll help, that's encouraging.

To relate this to Mormonism, this is what I meant by the Mormon leaders coming up short on making definitive statements that lay certain controversies to bed, that help local leaders to govern their flock better (with more knowledge and less individual screw-ups through lack of clear direction), that clarify anything, anything at all. At least the Pope writes a book that may clarify a subject and that may help with tough issues in the world. What does Monson write? Or GBH? Or SWK? Or any of them?

For Badgirl, the reason some have said through the ages that the Jews killed Christ is that they had an opportunity to save him but they chose not to. But still, it was the Romans who carried out the crucifixion. So I never understood anyway why this "Christ-killer" thing sprang up and persisted to the present day in some quarters. It makes no sense. And, again, from the doctrinal point of view for Christians, Jesus had to die in order to be resurrected in order to save the world, no? So in that case, whoever killed him did everybody a favour. So how does that support the ongoing anti-Semitism? It just makes no sense. Never did. Never will. Some people are just looking for an excuse. But that one is completely irrational.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 08:09PM by Nightingale.

Read it and weep about the Vatican creeps:

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/analysis/hitlerspope.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 07:57PM by steve benson.

it's about 2000 years too late, and too many people died as a result.

Have you ever thought about Judas?

He had a job to do and he's condemned for it.

If he hadn't betrayed Christ, Christ won't have been the crucified.

It was a tough job, but someone had to do it.

Not really. Nobody had to kill anybody.

Religion - the root of all evil.