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Posted by: roya1b100d ( )
Date: April 26, 2014 09:46AM

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim,

“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’

Interesting that Joseph Smith would say this it fits my theory that Joseph might have been on acid when it came to the Book of Mormon but I do believe he was well educated (concerning religion)

If the church didn't make changes over the year such as the blood atonement, cursed black people, etc. would Mormons be like Radical Islam? Just a thought.

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Posted by: brandywine ( )
Date: April 26, 2014 10:17AM

So Brigham's idea of Blood Atonement may have come from JS? Fascinating.

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Posted by: stillburned ( )
Date: April 26, 2014 10:24AM

Of course blood atonement came from Joseph Smith, as did Adam-God. Brigham Young never had an original thought in his thick head, regardless of how eloquently he could speak or how effectively he led. And even he was informally educated, Joseph Smith was extremely well read and nothing like the ignorant bumpkin TSCC likes to portray him.

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Posted by: dot ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 02:02AM

reference to JS teaching adam-god?

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Posted by: stillburned ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 08:30AM

Yeah. I don't have a reference...just a gut feel. I don't think Brigham Young had an ounce of originality in him. You and I may only be able to find references showing BY taught Adam-God, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that JS gave him the idea, and probably taught it somewhere.

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Posted by: adamgodnotanymore ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 01:18PM

From the Wikipedia:
"According to Young, he was taught by Joseph Smith[2] that Adam is "our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do".
And the reference given is [2]: Minutes of Meeting, at Historian's Office; Great Salt Lake City; 7 P.M. April 4, 1860 "It was Joseph's doctrine that Adam was God &c When in Luke Johnson's"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine#cite_note-3

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 02:33AM

roya1b100d Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of
> 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim,
>
> “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed,
> whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the
> Alcoran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually
> be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’
>
> Interesting that Joseph Smith would say this it
> fits my theory that Joseph might have been on acid
> when it came to the Book of Mormon but I do
> believe he was well educated (concerning religion)
>
>
> If the church didn't make changes over the year
> such as the blood atonement, cursed black people,
> etc. would Mormons be like Radical Islam? Just a
> thought.


It is interesting that this recollection of Smith's rhetoric
came from the President of the Quorum of the Twelve and that
no less a Mormon than Apostle Orson Hyde confirmed the report.

It seems very likely that Smith was fascinated with the origins
and spread of Islam. Just like Mohamed strove to gain control
of trade routes around Arabia, Smith attempted to intersect
the Santa Fe Silver and Fur trade at Independence, and the
steamboat traffic at rapids in the Mississippi, by taking
over both banks of that river in the Nauvoo area.

John Stafford, Smith's next door neighbor in Manchester, NY,
recalled that the young Joe Smith was familiar the Koran and
with Muslim polygamy. Other residents of the area said that
he used to read a popular edition of the Arabian Nights.

Smith's religion had seven dispensations, each headed up by
a great prophet who brought forth revelation and/or scripture.
In both Islam and Mormonism, Jesus headed up the failed sixth
dispensation (though Mormons say the keys were passed to the
Apostle Peter), which required the establishment of a final,
fully successful dispensation, headed up by the greatest
prophet of all (Mohamed or Joe Smith).

It is an over-simplification to assert that the early Islamic
armies always demanded allegiance to the Koran, or bloody
death by the sword, to the peoples they conquered. Jews and
Christians were theoretically immune from the edict -- which
was reserved for idolators, and was meant to be their salvation

If Joe Smith really told his President of the Twelve, that he
would conquer Missouri, sparing only those who honored him,
he was departing widely from the old Islamic model. The more
appropriate maxim would have been "The Book of Mormon or the
Sword!" -- that is, if Joe had been emulating Mohamed.

Joe Smith almost certainly introduced blood atonement into
Mormonism -- but probably not directly from Islam. In Islam
apostasy from that religion merits death, but there is no
hint of that death being a personal atonement for sins not
forgiven in Jesus' sacrifice.

Joe got his blood atonement notions from some other, Christian
source, I would guess -- but I'm not sure what it was.

UD

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Posted by: procrusteanchurch ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 08:47AM

> It is interesting that this recollection of
> Smith's rhetoric
> came from the President of the Quorum of the
> Twelve and that
> no less a Mormon than Apostle Orson Hyde confirmed
> the report.

Do you happen to have a source for this?

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Posted by: dalebroadhurst ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 12:55PM

procrusteanchurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > It is interesting that this recollection of
> > Smith's rhetoric
> > came from the President of the Quorum of the
> > Twelve and that
> > no less a Mormon than Apostle Orson Hyde
> confirmed
> > the report.
>
> Do you happen to have a source for this?

Look here for the Thomas B. Marsh and Hyde statements:
http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1840s/1841Misr.htm#pg057a

There's some more on Marsh here:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UT/utahmsc3.htm#042834

Google Dr. John stafford and Koran for other interesting stuff

UD

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Posted by: apawst8 ( )
Date: April 27, 2014 10:11AM

The Wikipedia article on Adam-God says this:

Though Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of Mormonism, never taught the Adam–God doctrine in any of his recorded public statements, he provided several teachings from which Adam–God adherents draw support. For example, Smith taught in an 1839 sermon that Adam was actually the archangel Michael who held the First Presidency in the premortal life.[7] In the same sermon, Smith taught that Adam holds "the keys of the universe",[8] so that it is through his authority that all priesthood "keys" (i.e., the abilities to unlock particular priesthood powers) are revealed from heaven.[9] In 1840, Smith taught that Adam is the one "through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth."[10] And finally, Smith taught in his 1844 King Follett discourse that God was once a man "like one of us".[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam%E2%80%93God_doctrine

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Posted by: Refiner's Fire Ministries ( )
Date: May 26, 2016 11:31AM

This is an excerpt from my 2002 article. Please go to http://www.help4rlds.com/articles.html (5th article down) to see the entire article, which includes complete documentation regarding the authenticity of the quote, which was verified by multiple members from the highest ranks of Joseph's own church.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: May 26, 2016 03:56PM

Joe was a little before Albert Hofmann's time, but just because he sold the snake oil doesn't mean he cooked it up. Cowdery and Whitmer were more likely the brains behind the operation, along with perhaps other of the "eight witnesses".

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Posted by: laperla not logged in ( )
Date: May 26, 2016 04:57PM


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Posted by: abcdomg ( )
Date: May 26, 2016 06:30PM

They were certainly seen as radical at the time, and Joe was compared to "Mohamet" by critics of Mormonism. Read the damning presentation in the center column of this 1842 New York Herald: "The Discussion by General Bennett about Joe Smith and the Mormons"

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030313/1842-08-31/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1836&index=0&rows=20&words=God+Gods+Joe+Smith&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1848&proxtext=joe+smith+god&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

There was also a screed, written in Joe's own hand, to a presidential candidate, in which he threatened violence if he didn't get money from the government:

"If the Latter Day Saints are not restored
to all their rights and paid for all their
losses, according to the known rules of
justice and judgement, reciprocation and
common honesty among men, then God
will come out of his hiding place and vex
this nation with a sore vexation yea,
the consuming wrath of an offended God
shall smoke through the nation, with as
much woe, as independence has blazed
through with pleasure and delight...

"While I have power of body and mind ; while water runs and
grass grows; while virtue is lovely and
vice hateful ; and while a stone points
out tho sacred spot where a fragment of
American liberty once was ; I or my
posterity will plead the cause of injured
innocence, until Missouri makes attonement for all her sins, -or sink disgraced,
degraded and damned to hell 'where
the worm dieth not, and tho fire is not
quenched...'

"Oh, vain men, will ye not, if ye
do not restore them to their rights and
$2,000,000 worth of property relinquish
to them, (the Latter Day Saints) as a
body, their portion and power that be-
ongs to them according to the constitu
tion? Power has its convenience, as well
as inconvenience. The world was not
made for Caesar alone, but for Titus too...'

"I will give you a parable; a certain
lord had a vineyard in a goodly land,
which men labored in at their pleasure;
a few meek men also went and purchased
with money from some of the chief men
that labored at pleasure, a portion of land
in the vineyard, at a very remote part of
it, and began to improve it, and to eat
and drink the fruit thereof: when the
lord of the vineyard, rose up suddenly
and robbed these meek men, and drove
them from their possessions, killing many.
This barbarous act made no small stir
among the men in the vineyard where
the men where robbed, rose up in grand
council, with their chief man, who had
firstly ordered the deed to be done, and
made a covenant not to pay for the cruel
deed, but to keep the spoil, and never let
those meek men set their feet on that soil
again, neither recompence them for it.
Now these meek men, in their distress,
wisely fought redress of those wicked
men in every possible manner and got
none. They then supplicated the chief
men, who held the vineyard at pleasure.
and who had tho power to sell and defend
it, for redress and redemption, and those
men, loving the fame and favor of the
multitude, more than the glory of the lord
of the vineyard, answered, your cause is
just, but we can do nothing for you because
we have no power. Now when
the lord of the vineyard saw that virtue
and innocence was not regarded, and his
vineyard occupied by wicked men, he
sent men and took the possession of it to
himself, and destroyed those unfaithful
servants, and appointed them their portion among hypocrites."

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84038582/1844-02-23/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1836&index=1&rows=20&words=God+Joe+Smith&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1848&proxtext=joe+smith+god&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

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Posted by: tenaciousd ( )
Date: May 27, 2016 02:47AM

"Forget the 14 year olds ... maybe I can bang a nine year old like that camel-riding Arab!"

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