Bishop wants me to see a counselor for depression and said he'd pay for it out of fast offerings.

When I set up the appt. with the counselor's office, the office manager told me the counselor could speak with the bishop about our sessions because the bishop was paying for it.

I've never been to a counselor before, but is that right?

I don't feel like I could be very open or honest if what I disclose will be all going right back to the bishop.

Any input or experience with this?

Run away. Now.

Exactly!

Your depression is likely due to being stuck in that soul-sucking cult. Mine was. I feel incredibly happier now that I discovered the fraud and was able to leave the cult competely behind me.

I echo what sunnynomo said, get out now!

Yes, totally agree here. Run away as quickly as possible.

"Bishop wants me to see a counselor for depression and said he'd pay for it out of fast offerings."

I would say yes if he's paying for it. Do you think you need to see a therapist? If so, see a NONmormon one and that way you get a secular view of things AND he/she cannot share the info with anyone; exceptions are if you're a danger to yourself or others..

Yes, but they should have you sign a disclaimer about this. It's in the fine print somewhere. Until you sign away this right, the counselor is bound to confidentiality. But I don't think you will get to see an LDSSS counselor without signing away this right.

I strongly suggest (especially if you visit anyone on direct or indirect reference from this Bishop) that you obtain copies of the contract and anything else that you will be asked to sign very very carefully. Then mull it over for a few days and make sure there was no questionable language in the wordings on this concern of yours. And add a sentence saying "Any information discussed in counseling may not be disclosed to any church ecclesiastical leader, employee, or volunteer without my prior written uninterrupted consent of at least 7 calendar days; and I may choose to revoke such consent anytime."

If you are going through the Church then that is the way that goes. If you go through somebody else then even if he pays he won't get info unless you sign a release.

This is absolutely unethical. It doesn't matter who's paying for the sessions. Report this therapist immediately to your state's licensing board. File a written complaint and quote the office manager directly. This is your opportunity to do your part in fixing what's wrong with your society.

This system of preying on the suffering works only because the suffering are, in fact, suffering so haven't got the energy to defend themselves against the people that are supposed to be helping them. However, the state sets up licensing boards and enforces standards of conduct, for this very reason: corrupt people with power over others, whether employers, religious leaders, or parents, try to use their authority to persuade/coerce the suffering to get needed help and then collude with those given a state monopoly over helping them to advance their own corrupt agenda's with the suffering people. Please, help your society--represented by your state's licensing board--to do its job in protecting you and people like you. Someone who you'll never meet will have you to thank. That's how a well-functioning society works.

I agree. This is completely unethical and I wouldn't have anything to do with it. And yes, I agree that you should report it to the ethics board.

It only happens because people let it happen. People think they don't have a voice, or they think it's okay because a bishop is "God's man" or whatever. But there are LAWS about this, and this person could lose their right to practice.

I would say absolutely not, and I'd see someone who isn't LDS. In fact, call around to other practitioners in your area and ask them if they do this. I'm sure you'll be able to tell how wrong this is just by their reactions.

I have bipolar disorder and was in a lot of therapy at one point while I was working as a nanny for a family. The mother really needed some reassurance that I wasn't going to snap and kill her babies, which I kind of understood. I had to sign forms saying my therapist could talk to her, and everyone involved in the process thought the whole thing was so weird. I mean, my therapist was game (and I knew he was way more interested in my well being than in what she thought) but the records department (who I had to sign the release through) was so confused by it. They really didn't know how to process a request that wasn't a transfer of records to another provider or to the police or something.

Run the other way. Don't look back. I highly suspect that even if you don't sign, they will have some under the table discussions anyway. If you're feeling particularly brave, you could plant some false info that you know your bishop would be required to act on in order to catch them in it.

Don't do it! Unless you get a confidentiality contract with the therapist. It shouldn't matter if the church is paying for it or not.

Let me guess . . . this is LDS Social Services, right?

Giving the counselor the right to talk to someone (not a mental
health professional) about your sessions is bad for the
counseling process. It means you constantly have to worry about
what you say to the counselor because you know it might get out
to the Bish. Then, of course, it can be discussed in PEC
meetings, and from there, who knows.

Why not just video your counseling sessions and put them on
Youtube.

And just to clarify - the bishop isn't paying for it, your ward members are out of fast offerings. Does that mean that everyone in your ward has the right to know what is said? Unfortunately, that's what may happen in ward council if you allow this to happen.

Good point!

I was sent to LDSSS as part of the requirements for me to get full membership back after my “love” court. It required me to sign the disclosure forms. I believe the therapist spoke with my bishop at least weekly. I was also told not to see a non-lds therapist.

for free through social services?

You say the bishop is offering to pay for your therapy with funds from members. Far better for you to go to the state and ask for services.

You will get a secular no-nonsense mental health professional who will give you a full evaluation with free treatment if you need it.

My schizophrenic son receives top notch professional psychiatric services here in California. He takes drugs which would cost $1500 a month if paid out of pocket. One of my daughters also has free psychiatric services and regular therapy and she is doing much better too.

If you find that avenue won't work for you, then go to another church. I used to work for the Presbyterian church and they are very generous, especially if you tell them the whole story, they will understand your predicament and won't require you to join their church. You can also try the local Catholics--they have a lot of heart for suffering and generally are providing relief on many fronts for the poor.

Fair warning, when a doctor finds you have scabies, they don't give you a cream to control the itching. They have you take pills to kill the parasites. You have a parasite (in my opinion)!

As you can see from reading above, many people suffer under the heavy yoke of Mormonism, whereas Jesus Christ said his yoke is easy, his burden is light. He certainly wasn't talking about the life-devouring cult of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Best of luck


Kathleen Waters

PS.

I received the help I needed when I voluntarily went to a hospital in Seattle and received therapy from non-LDS connected doctors. That was back in the 90s.

Resigning was the best medicine.

Are therapists a group covered under HIPPA? This is your mental health we're talking about here. Are they trying to help or make it worse? Run as fast as you can. Unethical is a word that comes to mind.

I was presented that similar disclosure c. 2008 at LDS Social Services in Texas, and have always wished I had kept a copy. I was shocked and couldn't believe that part. Anyway, I didn't sign and paid out of pocket - and they did demand payment up front (I paid one session to appease the spouse). I've never talked to a psych. since that demanded payment up front - ever. I've never gone back to LDS social services either. Anyway, without that paper, the spouse now denies that disclosure ever existed. I'm certain it's unethical, though the LDS legal team has probably vetted the forms to make sure they pass legal and professional board requirements. Nevertheless, I think that form makes them look very, very shady. And you know how they feel about appearances.

this is...a very bad idea.

No! No! No!

An ethical, licensed therapist absolutely can not disclose information to a third party (your bishop, or anyone else) under any circumstances other that a court order to do so. Disclosing session information to an unauthorized 3rd party by the therapist results in investigation and suspension of their license, AND THE LOSS OF SUBSTANTIAL LIQUIDATED DAMAGES in the form of the lawsuit you bring against them.

in Washington state ... only Licensed practitioners can claim to be "therapists", that's different than "counselors" here, I believe.

Yes on the therapy. Just not with this person. Getting mental health care isn't as easy as it should be, but try to get an appointment with a real therapist.

Our church also pays for therapist visits, but under no circumstances would the church ask to be told what went on in the session. It's just wrong. We would probably want to pay the therapist directly though to make sure the money was going where it was supposed to go.

Do what the shepherd did when it started to snow.
Get the flock out of there!

I have family that works in LDS family therapy so here is the skinny on it.

LDS Social Services as a general rule does not treat members. They do treat Bishops, Stake Presidents, etc.

When a bishop "pays" for your treatment, you are sent to a LDS Therapist that believes in a form of therapy for lack of a better word called "Repentance Therapy". Most mental illness is believed to be the result of sin and your bishop has to be involved in your therapy so he knows what you need to "repent" of. Hence your bishop will be told everything you talk about and especially every thing that could be considered a sin.

Bishops pay a very meager hourly rate for their inside knowledge which is why the client is often "treated" by someone very new. Before a therapist can get their license in the State I know about, the therapist has to do 2,000 hours of non charge the patient time. LDS Repentance Therapy is a good way to get the hours for a new therapist.

While many Therapist are good, lots of them have some really weird religious views so you need to interview a few and decide which one will work best for you.

If you have insurance - you will be cured right as the insurance runs out.

Anxiety and depression have been reduced dramatically since I stopped going to church and deciding to not believe. It's been nice. Consider your feelings and get out.

HOWEVER, I went to counseling some years ago through LDS inc and I had a FABULOUS counselor. She was literally one of a kind and validated me, helped me and I survived what I was struggling with at that time. I am forever grateful for her, but I know it's not the norm in the church. Good luck.

I love the internet, and I love this site. There's such a diversity of people here with experience in just about anything you can think of.

Ask a question, and get a straight forward answer, if you don't there's usually someone that can direct you to the right information. This site is so valuable in that way. It truly helps exmos know who's up to no good, and what to do about it. The church has gotten away with abusing members for years. No more. The ability to be able to talk to each other about THEM is the single most damaging thing that has ever happened to the church.

They can no longer keep us in the dark with threats and fear. We are learning their tactics, and what we can do about them. No wonder they've lawyered up. Anyone mass abusing people like they do, needs a lot of attoneys.

LDSSS are, for the most part, awful. In the state I was in you were assigned a therapist--period. The money paying is out of the ward coffers. The therapist is to tell your Bishop basically whatever the Bishop asks. If you do not sign that forn approving it, you will not get "therapy". I agree with themaster, the therapists are usually newbies that experiment on you. But you may get a good one, it is a crap shoot.
The gist of it is, if you want privacy, it won't happen. You will be talked about in meetings "out of concern".
Please go to a Catholic Charity. they are wonderful and GET OUT OF THIS CHURCH!!. Once I realized I did not have to live up to unattainable standards among many other issues begun by being baptized into this church(attempted suicide), I am the happiest and most successful I have ever been.

I absolutely agree with everything other posters have already said.

Your bishop should absolutely not be involved in matters pertaining to your mental health. Even if he were an MD, he is not *your* MD, and his position as bishop of an LDS ward does not give him the right or responsibility to get involved in issues like this that are likely well outside his area of experience and expertise.

Yes, if he/ward pays they believe they get to discuss you with the therapist, including anything you may disclose that could precipitate a "court of love" against you.

Yes, the therapist asks you to sign a disclosure statement that allows them to discuss you with the bishop. Your sessions will be decidedly non-therapeutic if, as you say, you are concerned about what the (so-called) therapist will be reporting back to your bishop. Even if it is not "court of love" stuff, it's still your private, and likely sensitive, business. Anybody would be concerned about maintaining privacy.

Ask yourself for what reason the bishop needs to hear back from the therapist. It is my impression that one main reason is that the bishop, like all LDS bishops, feels he must discover whether there is anything going on that he needs to take action against (think court of love again). This primary focus of theirs makes the bishop and the therapist both non-therapeutic for you and not on your side. The "therapy" becomes more about LDS beliefs and practices (i.e., the bishop's belief, passed down from top leaders, that he is responsible to maintain matters in his ward such that "sinners" be suitably judged and punished) than about you. In the real (non-LDS) world, therapy is always about the client (you) and not about anybody or anything else.

I joined the LDS Church as an adult (in one of my weak moments!) I was in for three yrs and became gradually more depressed. The bishop recommended that I see an LDS counsellor. It was my impression that the man was a psychologist. That is what the bishop called him. He told me that this man travelled for the LDS Church, going around to each area and being available at certain times only for any LDS members who needed this type of assistance.

I agreed to go but had NO CLUE about the disclosure agreement. Also, I wanted to pay myself. I just had a thing about taking money from offerings, plus I could afford to pay. My recollection is that it was $60.00 (fairly reasonable for a professional therapist). Even so (and yes, they collected the money up front, prior to my evening session) I was told that the bishop would be kept informed of what was discussed during the session as this was supposedly how the bishop made sure he was doing his job, or something like that.

Because the psychologist had travelled a considerable distance and was only available every third month or something like that, and I had travelled quite a long way to get to the ward building where he was situated, and because they presented the disclosure agreement as a requirement (if I didn't sign I couldn't see the therapist) I felt under great pressure for all those reasons to sign the thing. And yes, they hurry you (it was the psych himself who gave it to me and it was part of the session so I was also under pressure for time - I wanted to spend all the time possible discussing my issue and not doing paperwork).

I have posted in the past about my experience with this aspect of my Mormon experience. It was yet another Mormon moment I did not enjoy (understatement). The therapist was eating his dinner at the start of my session, which I found beyond rude and really not very appealing. Then we spent 10 or so minutes with intros and the above-mentioned paperwork. The session which I thought would be an hour was actually only 50 min and then by the time we started talking it was down to 40 or less, not a very long time when you have to explain yourself and lay the groundwork. At least for me, by the time I got around to finally asking for help, and especially by seeing a therapist, I felt at the end of my rope and was very pressured to get some kind of quick result. I couldn't stand the thought of having to wait another few months between appointments and maybe needing several sessions before the guy could even start to maybe help me.

When the therapist finally got around to asking me why I was there, admittedly I didn't open very well. I said "I have a problem with the church", which was my issue in a nutshell. I didn't stop to wonder how that would come across to a TBM. The therapist looked angry and spoke to me in what I considered a harsh and belittling manner. Let's just say that I had no intention of returning and he did not help.

Well, he didn't help in the way I had been expecting. As I was leaving, walking across the wide expanse of lawn towards the street and my car to make as quick a getaway as possible, feeling really down at not getting any assistance, the thought suddenly illuminated my brain that I just didn't have to go back to church! So simple. So obvious. And much easier for a short term convert than a BIC, I realize. But if you're stuck in only one perspective you don't always see obvious options, I have found.

And that was it. I didn't go back to church, other than to tell the bishop I was leaving and that I would not take such a decision lightly and therefore I really meant it and would not say it if there was any chance I may change my mind. Fortunately for me, he took me at my word that I was not interested in HT or VT visits or any attempts at getting me back. He said to me, "I know you are a Christian woman", which I have interpreted in various ways. He was a convert too and we liked and respected one another. I thought it was a nice comment for him to make and that it held deep meaning for both of us.

The absolute truth is, as someone said above, once I wasn't attending church any more, I didn't feel depressed at all, almost instantly. My perspective widened a bit more as I recalled that the focus of the (mainstream) Christian way that I knew before joining Mormonism is the 'relationship' between the individual, you, and God, or the Lord, or whichever term/concept you wish to use. There is not meant to be a middle man, it should be a straight road between you and God. Keeping that in mind, all the "covenants" and "promises" and your character and principles and standards and intentions and behaviour and history are just between you and Him and not dependent on which church or denomination you belong to. This helped me to separate all of those things from the Mormon Church and make it, once again, between me and God. I then did not need to feel guilty (as I had done) about making "covenants" or promises that I was turning away from (because I wasn't - not from the basics of Christian belief), or guilty for any other reason.

Before, when I had had questions about doctrine or practice or history, or even just mentioning something that didn't make sense to me or that there was a discrepancy somewhere, Mormons would reply, "But you've been baptized!" or "You've been to the temple!" The bishop used the latter one on me frequently. I never understood that response until years after I had left (and years of reading this board). I think it's because members and leaders alike believe that "all your questions will be answered in the temple" or "all will be well after your baptism" (or they hope that is so). They actually expected me to return as a fully fledged TBM, is my impression, but really I was still just me, and they didn't know how to handle that. I didn't understand how the bishop would think that uttering such a phrase would answer my questions or make me go away and be a quiet, submissive member (which is what they seem to want) but now I understand it better. They think you get your own "light" which should look after all your concerns or at least shut you up and make you get into line.

It's a whole different feeling and experience when things become just between you and God, in that you can feel more in charge and more independent and stronger. At least, that is the state to which I returned after leaving the Mormon Church, from one Sunday to the next.

So I have to say that that psychologist did help me after all as it was just one more miserable experience in a host of such and it turned out to be the final straw for me. I didn't expect that when I went there and I certainly didn't just take the easy way out. It was just such a huge disappointment and I felt humiliated by his attitude and the way he spoke to me (harsh, rushed, with dislike or distaste) or his tone (disgusted). I didn't appreciate going to a therapist and coming away feeling even worse.

I even surprised myself at how fabulous I felt at making the decision to stop struggling and just stop going to Mormon Church meetings. And how great it felt as time went by and I continued to choose not to attend. (In my case, I returned to my pre-mo denomination - Mennonite Brethren - and felt much more at home and comfortable and still "Christian", which was my desire).

For the record, I had an incredibly negative baptism experience and I did not return to church for six weeks afterwards, after the missionaries had made a superhuman effort to get me to go back. The bishop even said "I understand why you wouldn't come to church after that". It was an uphill struggle for me every day after that for three years and it's no wonder I eventually became depressed (not clinically so, where I would have needed a psychiatrist and perhaps meds). And when the bishop said, "I know you are a Christian woman" (a great compliment from a Mormon to a BAC, in my book) I thought it was akin to his previous comment about understanding why I wouldn't want to go to church after a bad experience/s.

So, the bottom line is that even if you pay yourself, I believe (from my experience) that you are expected/required to sign the disclosure form, as the bishop is sending you (and paying, although that is not the sole reason he feels entitled).

Again in the real world, ideally your GP would refer you to the requisite therapist and it would be a private health matter between you and your MDs. Non-Mormon therapists adhere strictly to confidentiality principles, or that is the universal expectation. Even when an employer sends you for therapy, of any kind, the therapist does not report back to the employer, not about the content of your discussions.

Sometimes it helps to gain a wider perspective and thus have more info to formulate wise decisions if you know how things go in the non-LDS universe (no offence).

Depression is not just a mind thing. There can be any number of physical conditions that may cause feelings of depression. That is why the place to start is your GP. Bishops and even psychologists (not medical doctors) do not specialize in this area.

Good luck to you. I hope you can find the help you need in the best place possible for you. If you can, please let us know how it goes. (No details necessary! We're not LDS bishops here!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2014 03:12PM by Nightingale.

Update:

Called the office mgr back and said did I hear you right the first time about updating my bishop. And she said yes, it not required to update the bishop but most expect it...

I said if I don't give authorization to speak with the payment he might not pay, and she said I'd have to take that up with him. When bishops pay they expect a progress report.

I said so if have an employer-cover plan, my employer will expect to be in the loop as well???

She got all flustered like this privacy thing was new to her and she said she'd have the counselor call me.

I told her to screw it and cancelled the appt. What a cluster!

Thanks for everyone's input. I'll check out some of the recommendation in the thread you all posted.

Avoid "LDS Family Services" (or whatever they call themselves) at all costs!

When I was in my early twenties my bishop strong-armed me into going and it was a terrible experience and I still suffer from some of the things that "therapist" said and did.