I Think they have; today's living requires Plenty of intelligent choices - decisions to survive; how does Mormonism continue in that environment, with only Loyalty & Obedience? I know a few LDS attys in Seattle, I just Don't Understand!

Some "intelligent" LDS's I know seem to use their wards for business purposes. One husband/wife owns a carpet cleaning business and parks their professionally-detailed company van in the lot on Sundays as an advertisement. I know an attorney who has used the ward/stake directory to advertise his services. Doctors, psychologists have their business cards distributed by bishops at the discretion of the bishop who can refer troubled ward members. Perhaps "intelligent" people are covering two bases at once: being churchgoers because it looks like a reputable thing to do, while using tscc for monetary gain.

I know plenty of intelligent members. It's a mind control cult. Even smart people can be brainwashed when they are indoctrinated from birth.

I agree. I would say that most members are intelligent people. They've just been raised not to question, and that stuck with them. I think the church WILL be dumbed down over time. More and more people will learn the truth. Many will leave, many will be active disbelievers for various reasons, and many will become nutty defenders of the faith. The nutty ones will be the only ones paying tithing, they will be the future leaders, and in time (probably many decades), it will be obvious to ALL that the church is run by nut jobs.

I am sure you misspoke. Most is clearly wrong, most Mormons are not intelligent, just as most people are not intelligent.

Mormons have a big problem. They belong to a provably stupid religion, does that make them stupid.

I have my opinion.

We do have the Internet now. This isn't a matter of not being able to know and also not knowing you are not alone any longer.

This has become a belief of choice.

My DH is very intelligent. He knows about much of the crap that make moisum a cult. He just hates change and likes being different, as in Mormon in the midwest. He loves the fawning attention he gets by being a past Bishop. He thinks he's cool because despite his long hair, earring, colored shirts, he has always held good positions in the cult.

A cool Mormon.

A stunningly intelligent high school friend who went on to get both an MD and PhD degree (computer science) didn't start to think maybe there was something a little fishy with the church until he was in his late 50s. I don't know if he has totally seen the light yet. Intelligence doesn't necessarily have anything to do with understanding the church is bogus. As Michael Shermer explained, smart people are just better at making up rational sounding reasons to believe baloney.

I think many smart people have left, but I think there are a LOT of smart people still left inside.
I'm not a genius - but I'm relatively intelligent. It was a battle within my own mind to finally get out; even when I finally knew intellectually that it was all a fraud, there was a part of my brain arguing, "but the church is true."

See, that's what happens with mind control. Especially when it is begun at a very young age.

Even though I was a TBM, I could never get up in public and say, "I KNOW the church is true." I BELIEVED it was true, but I didn't know it was true. Nevertheless, it had a hold on me.

I think many smart people have learned how to use TSCC to their great profit. Their financial security depends on staying in TSCC

There are smart people, and then there are reflective people. I have always spent a lot of time wondering about the universe, it's origins, how it works, etc. and found faith wanting as a method for finding these things out. Dogma is static. There's no exploration or respect for the scientific method. Science is always trying to prove itself wrong. Religion does the opposite.

I agree wholeheartedly that a ton of people use their church contacts to both land their jobs, plus in their business dealings. Think of people who make their living in sales, such as real estate, politicians, construction workers, home builders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, painters, dentists, doctors, lawyers....the list is endless.

I know my husband and I for a very long time believed the church was a fraud, but we did keep up the pretense by going to church now and then because we were certain that if we took the other road it would affect my husband's business. People get to a certain age, have obligations such as kids and a mortgage, and it is not easy to pull up stakes to find new employment or a new place to live or seek new training to land a different job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2014 11:02PM by presleynfactsrock.

Intelligent people often have huge egos. And nothing feeds the ego like thinking one will become a god.

I knew an extremely smart guy, who claimed to be so special that he sat with god in the pre-existance, and that he knew more about me and my potential than I could ever know. He would tell this to lots of people, and people believed everything he said. Bunk, nice try Mr. L.

The comment above about reflective people is right on. Sometimes ego (pride) gets in the way of being reflective, and is a stumbling block to finding truth.

All. The dumbasses are left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2014 02:52AM by gentlestrength.

I guess there are smart people still in Mormonism. Joseph Smith was smart and he was in it.

Similar to Joseph Smith there are probably people in the religion now who stay for personal benefit but who do not believe its teachings. They're the real wolves in sheep's clothing.

I doubt many people would call this kind of smart a virtue.

Any honest seeker of truth with a working, critical mind, will eventually realize Mormonism is false. It is only by giving up the search for truth that one can settle upon Mormonism. The questions to clear the fog are simple and easily found by those who are truly looking.

The other question is: is everyone capable of developing a critical mind? Or are some people destined to be blind sheep forever.

Can smart people be brainwashed?

Yes, as converts or from birth.

Can brainwashed people keep their wits about them and think their way out?

Yes, I and many others have done just that.

I think it comes down to the individual and if they like being Mormon or not. If they do, they stay. If they don't fit and are miserable, they take a good hard look at the facts and contradictions, then they either leave or go bonkers.

I don't completely understand it either. I have two siblings that are some of the smartest people I know, as well as a father who is a verified genius when he was all there. For them, I simply think that they need to believe. To even contemplate that it might not be true scares the crap out of them, and so they don't.

The instincts that result in survival are the driving forces of our behavior. The primitive part of our brain is mostly in control. That is why so many can't control what they eat, or whatever.

So a big part of or behavior is clinging to a group for survival. We find comfort and support in a group. We fear rejection as a threat to our life.

Which is why even 'smart' exmos worry about wearing the current fashion, or having a car or house that is acceptable, or we cling to a political party, or worship government as the answer despite its failures, or engage in marriage despite the small rate of success, etc, etc.

No, plenty of smart people are still Mormons. It's not really a matter of intelligence when choosing religion or not. If it was I'd see most smart people being atheist, as pretty much any faith and religion can and has been logically debunked by someone.

This is likely because when it comes to faith even smart people will check their rationality and reasonable doubt in at the door. You kind of have to to believe most anything religion, especially organized religion, peddles.

True story, my late uncle was a physicist, worked for Los Alamos National Labs, faithful TBM to the end.

From my limited experience...

I work with some very SMART TBMs at my work. Engineers to boot so that have taken tons of science classes.

That being said...they are smart within a very well-defined box. Ask them to go outside of their well-defined boundaries and they're lost.

It's kind of funny to watch them shrink into themselves when we discuss what we did on the weekend, specifically Sundays (few beers, watched, the game, golfing, waterskiing, etc).

You can (and they can too) see that "they" only have a 1-day weekend, where the nonmos always have a 2-day weekend.

usually they'll seek out another mormon to discuss their Sunday church activities. They don't talk to the nonmos about this anymore because when they would BITCH....about their Sunday "church-load", we'd laugh at them and tell them that they didn't have to do all that stuff their bitching about....It's ALL voluntary...something they don't understand

Maybe the smartest of us are able to understand that life is, like you said, about survival. Possibly there are many people smart enough to realize that surviving as a human is about social connections, and even though they may have doubts, or just know it's a complete fable, they give in to it to maximize social harmony and enjoy a great deal of positive that can be enjoyed by those in favor with the Church social structure.

How does this explain the evangelizing, missionary work, giving up family and personal time to do Church work that can be hired out, senseless-repetitive temple cult rituals, bigotry and misogyny (blacks, gays, women, non-Americans, non-corporatists), excluding non-worthy family and friends from socially bonding and healing marriage ceremonies?

There is a stupidity to Mormonism that even people with intelligence in some areas cannot rationalize or justify. Just like many people that leave Mormonism are not intelligent, or do so for unintelligent reasons, the same could be said for staying as well. Conceding this does not excuse the stupidity of choosing to be a Mormon in 2014. The work has been done, people choose to stay in the silly organization or get out--that reflects on intelligence (IQ) and emotional intelligence (EQ).

Staying a Mormon is not intelligent unless you get something out of it from imposing it on others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2014 01:35PM by gentlestrength.

I have seen incredibly smart people both stay and leave, I have also seen incredibly stupid people both stay and leave. Intelligence seems to be the one factor that doesn't predict leaving the church. There seems to be a different aspect of intelligence, something less tangible, more difficult to measure, that determines who leaves and who doesn't. Something that has little to do with IQ or academic credentials.

Emotional Intelligence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

Goleman's mixed-model is the one with which I am most familiar. Many Mormons and former Mormons struggle with Emotional Intelligence because of bredding, genetics, and cultural isolation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2014 01:20PM by gentlestrength.

I've known lots of dumb attorneys, doctors, engineers, PhDs, and business executives in my life.

Often they are where they are because of circumstances and assistance beyond themselves. (Read, mommy & daddy.)

And I've known lots of incredibly gifted (intelligence-wise) blue-collar types, farmers, etc.

Being un-thinking and un-thoughtful and un-wise is certainly not specific to any one demographic. Cuts across all swaths of human types.

If all the smart people already left, we would now be seeing dumb ones becoming exmo. I havent noticed that yet.

Funny you should post this, I was thinking of the intelligent people I know who are still in. The conclusion I've come to... there are a lot of gullible smart people out there.

more about integrity than intelligence. There are lots of reasons a smart person would stay in the cult and sacrifice their integrity to do so if the costs of leaving are simply too high for them

It's not just about intelligence, emotional intelligence, or even integrity. Yes, all the work has been done and is out there. In this community we all know that. But as someone who just left last year, I can tell you I was completely unaware of all that stuff, just as I'm oblivious to the (according to one source) 95% of websites that supposedly are porn. These things are outside of my world. TBMs aren't supposed to look at anti-Mormon "lies," and most don't have the time and energy to discover them, let alone discover that a lot of those "lies" are really "truths." Only after I stumbled on the truth from some official and friendly sources did intelligence and integrity demand serious study into the Church's truth claims and disaffiliation, both of which occurred pretty quickly.

The more I think about how things were when I quit the CULT, the more I think that the drugs I took at the time actually helped me see how insane it all was. THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN ENCOURAGEMENT TO TAKE DRUGS. THIS IS JUST AN OBSERVATION.

But, for those of you who have taken certain psychedelic drugs, do you remember having certain times while under the influence when you think about the insanity of things in general? And specific things? I know that some times I would be thinking that something this or that politician said was incredibly stupid/insane in view of what the world was doing at the time. It is hard to understand if you've never been there.

I also remember talking to other drug influenced people about the CULT and laughing about how insane it all was. After the drugs wore off, it still seemed insane. That's when I decided to ask the bishoprick about certain questions I had and the rest (as they say) is history. That was the end for me completely.

I think that the drugs just clarified the picture for me in some ways.

Yes, but only once they see the lies

Of course there are still "smart people" who are Mormons. Ken Jennings is most likely smarter than anyone on this board. I don't know exactly how smart Mitt Romney is, but you don't become a hecto-millionaire by being stupid.

I think it's possible to be smart and be a Mormon, but I think it's difficult if you are a logical thinker in all aspects of life, or if you have a strong BS detector/meter. People who are logical thinkers in all aspects of life or who have strong BS detectors tend to be smart, but not all smart/intelligent people are logical thinkers in all aspects of life, or have strong BS meters.