I recently received the following series of rather ridiculous emails from a Christian, responding to my recently-published commentary about the lunatic anti-Semite, Frazier Glenn Miller/Cross, who went on an anti-Jewish hunt in Kansas (but ending up killing fellow Christians, instead, because, well, he's a lunatic).

Below is the correspondence (**with a few more exchanges since added in, give that the complaining heel-nipping chihuahua just wouldn't let go. :)
_____


From the complainer:

"I share your revulsion at the attack on those people in Kansas. Kudos on the cartoon. I expect you to publish a similar cartoon the next time the group that wants to wipe Christians, Jews and Hindus off the face of the earth commits a terrorist attack."


My reply:

"I have done plenty of cartoons on Muslim fanatics and other terrorists who wish to make the planet their own theological abode. I think you need to read more."
_____


The complainer:

"Good for you. Most media types give them a complete pass.


My reply:

"No, they don't. I have been in the media for over 30 years and that statement of yours is demonstrably false."
_____


The complainer:

"I read 7 newspapers a day. The NY Times constantly writes articles about the oppression of Muslims and ignores how Muslims treat Christians in Muslim countries. Please demonstrate how my statement is demonstrably false. You may want to read Ross Douthat's piece from last Sunday's NY Times regarding the hypocrisy of progressive censors. Brandeis U banned a speaker who has written about the disgraceful treatment by Muslims of women."


My reply:

"So, you read 7 newspapers a day and they represent 'most media'? Prove it. . . .

"Please cite for me, by name, all the media organizations who you claim 'give them a complete pass.' Do so by citing specific references, reporters' names, particular newspapers, television and radio broadcast entities and other media organizations."
_____


The complainer:

"You said my statement is demonstrably false, so the burden of proof is on you. But I will give you examples: NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, New Yorker magazine, New York magazine and MSNBC. Pretty much every periodical other than the Wall Street Journal and the NY Post.

"But please send one of the anti-Muslim fanatic cartoons you mentioned earlier. I’ll send it to my liberal friends and ask them again why they’re so protective towards a group that hates Christians, Jews, gay people, women, African Americans, etc. etc."


My reply:

"You claimed the following:

"'The NY Times . . . ignores how Muslims treat Christians in Muslim countries.'

"It took me 30 seconds to prove you wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/world/africa/09nigeria.html

"Please do some basic homework before you make such absurd and easily falsifiable assertions. . . .

"You are out of touch. . . . Good day."

**********


I thought the above exchange might, at this point, have brought the complainer to heel but such proved not to be the case. He wrote back.

The complainer:

"You’re a much better researcher than I am. I’m so bad I couldn’t find any of the cartoons you’ve done about Muslim fanatics- can you please send me one? In return I’ve copied this link for you. Thanks.

"This author will never be invited to speak at Brandeis U or any Ivy League school.

"'The Middle East War on Christians':
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303630904579417482632439814?mod=trending_now_1 "


My reply:

"It is not my responsibility to be your archival librarian. As you now concede, you're already bad enough at doing your own research, so I choose not to saddle myself with a job brought on yourself by your own researching inadequacies.

"Good luck.

"And when it comes to your media mumblings, next time, you might want to read the New York Times a bit more closely."
_____


The complainer:

"I don't think you've ever done such a cartoon [about non-Christians attacking Christians]--then again, I can't blame you. Look at what happened to the Dutch journalist who drew some provocative cartoons. Which begs the question of why liberals are so tolerant of and protective towards these fascists. When they wanted to open the Ground Zero mosque in NYC the Times and all the Democrats were falling over each other to support it. Only the WSJ and NYPost dissented."


My reply:

"Please go to your local public library, ask the staff librarian how to use the microfiche system, listen carefully to the instructions. Then perhaps you can spool things up and begin your undergraduate adventure into fact-digging on your own."
_____


The complainer:

"It’s been that long since you drew this mythical cartoon you refer to?"


My reply:

"Good day . . . . I am not your remedial ed teacher."
_____


THe complainer:

"Typical liberal reaction, unfortunately. The so called protectors of free speech, as long as they agree with it.
Ok, all in fun. I do enjoy your cartoons. Good night!"

My reply:

"Typical reaction of a kid who doesn't want to do his homework.
Check on when your library is open, since this conversation is now closed."
_____


The complainer:

"Putin or Stalin couldn’t have phrased it better. Well done!"


My reply:

"Also, please consider taking a course in reading comprehension: 'This conversation is now closed.'

"Thanks for playing. Now get to work, instead of grumping about the Russians."


The complainer:

"Ok, all in fun. I do enjoy your cartoons. Good night!"

*****


Dear Jesus, save us from your followers (and that includes Mormons out there saddled with a similar persecution complex).

:)



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 10:50PM by steve benson.

Until you said it was a guy, I was thinking Megyn Kelly.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Until you said it was a guy, I was thinking Megyn
> Kelly.


Or maybe Ann Coulter with her acerbic adam's apple.....:o)

The burden of proof is on the person making a claim. NOT the person who questions it.

Even if the claim has popular backing. The claimant has the burden of proof. If the claim is as solid as supposed with lots of popular backing, then proof should be easy. If not, the claim needs rethinking.

. . . high-school Forensics 101. Dealing with his complaint was like squishing fish in a barrel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 04:37PM by steve benson.

Mr. Benson, I'm certain you're very aware of a segment of the media, particularly in the US, which cannot survive without serving up massive portions of both exaggerated & fabricated persecution & the accompanying paranoia. However to characterize all Xtians, as you call us, as belonging to this group is wrong. Additionally, however radical & irrational the members of this group can be, it is accurate that now isn't a good time for Egyptian Coptic Christians or ones in Indonesia and Kenya. Unfortunately, the persecution if factual, not paranoid media rantings.

You sound like you may be one of them (with your board handle perhaps serving as a hint in that direction, in addition to your history of Xtian apologetics on this board: http://exmormon.org/phorum/search.php?2,search=,author=paidinfull,page=1,match_type=ALL,match_dates=30,match_forum=2,match_threads=0).

Before you continue to play the Xtian persecution card, please avail yourself of two books by James Haught, which will hopefully provide you with a necessary and wider view of the historical religious landscape.

The first, "Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the '90," is summarized thusly:

"It is a bitter irony that today millions who claim to be religious - those who counsel peace, advocate the community of humankind, and voice concern for the welfare of others - often perpetrate madness, mayhem, and murder on a grand scale, and all in the name of some "righteous" cause. It would seem that the crusades, inquisitions, and witch hunts of our dark and blood-drenched past have taught us nothing. In just the first few years of the 1990s the world has witnessed Sikh violence against Muslims in India; Serbian Orthodox Christians against Croatian Catholics and Bosnian Muslims in the shattered Yugoslavia; the extremism of Muslim holy laws throughout Africa and the Middle East; Catholics against Protestants in Northern Ireland; the Branch Davidian inferno in Waco, Texas; Hindus and Buddhists engaging in violent clashes in Sri Lanka; and the United States' first real experience of international religious terrorism on its own shores - namely the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City. These are but a few of the horrific episodes that make so many people question the benign message of modern religion. In Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the 1990s, renowned journalist James A. Haught, author of the widely acclaimed Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness, demonstrates in gruesome detail that humanity in general and the world's religions in particular have learned little from the brutal mistakes of their predecessors. Whether it be masses of Hindus storming the gates of a Muslim mosque in India; a car bombing in Belfast; the shotgun murder of an abortion-clinic physician in Florida; "ethnic cleansing" at the hands of Orthodox Serbs inBosnia-Herzegovina; or the bounties placed on the heads of those who dare to question the iron law of Islam; the frightening effects of "fractious faith" can be seen in virtually every part of the globe. But before rational people can join together to develop constructive answers to the conflicts of religious tribalism, which divide nations, communities, and families, the gripping realities of recent years must be acknowledged."

http://books.google.com/books/about/Holy_Hatred.html?id=1rwnAAAAYAAJ


Haught's second book, which you obviously also need to read, is "Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness" and is summarized as follows:

"When you think of saints, you envision stained-glass pictures of piety. But the truth can be horribly different. Consider Saint Pius V: As Grand Inquisitor, he sent Catholic troops to kill 2,000 Waldensian Protestants in southern Italy. After becoming pope, he sent Catholic troops to kill Huguenot Protestants in France. Pius also launched the final crusade against Muslims, sending a Christian naval armada to slaughter thousands in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571. And, he intensified the Roman Inquisition, torturing and burning Catholics whose beliefs varied from official dogma. After his death, Pius was canonized a saint. Heaven help us.

"'Holy Horrors' chronicles the grim spectrum of religious persecution from ancient times to the present, including such historic massacres as the Crusades, the Islamic jihads, the Catholic wars against heretics, the Inquisition, witch hunts, the Reformation, and such atrocities as the Holocaust, the seemingly insoluble Catholic-Protestant schism in Northern Ireland, religious tribalism in Lebanon, and the barbaric cruelty of the theocracy in Iran. The antique woodcuts, paintings, prints, and contemporary photographs that illustrate the book are at once gruesome and riveting."

http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Horrors-Illustrated-History-Religious/dp/1573927783/ref=la_B000APE82Q_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1397763810&sr=1-3
_____


In short, your mindset is old, predictable and selective. Step outside your box. Read beyond your comfort level--and, for gawd's sake, quit playing the "Woe-is-me-Xtains-are-more persecuted-than-you-are" card.

Finally you, of course, completely ignored the fact that the complainer's basic beef against the New York Times for supposedly ignoring atrocities committed against Christians is utterly and provably bogus. That was his essential point--padded with similar false accusations hurled at other named elements of the media--and, in the case of the NYT, one that was decimated with a single stroke. I can further demonstrate the complainer's deficit of factual information in his sweeping indictment against the media, in case you are either unaware of the facts in that regard or in a state of denial concerning them.



Edited 24 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 04:38PM by steve benson.

Surely your intention wasn't to presume that you're aware of religious persecutions & atrocities but all Christians are ignorant of these, was it?
"Dear Jesus, save us from your followers (and that includes Mormons out there saddled with a similar persecution complex) implies persecution is perceived rather than real. I simply pointed out that in some countries, parts of the world there is legitimate persecution of Christians, as I'm sure you're aware. And it is offensive, and simplistic, to see you lump every Christian in the mold of uber conservatives whose paranoia is propagated by a segment of the media. While these may be the most vocal, they are not representative of the majority of Christians, not even in the US. But I'm certain you know this as well.
What I'm not sure of is the spirit in which you whipped out a one sided & heavily edited (21 times) diatribe on what you assume I don't know. So obviously any reader on this forum is capable of searching for my previous posts, without your assistance. But if, sir, you hold on to the notion that every Christian is deficient in history, or ignorant in general, it's very clear that you are the one who needs to step outside of your predictable box.

. . . have been slaughtering and persecuting each other for centuries in the name of their respective human-concocted deities. And if you are not aware of that fact, you should be.

In the event that you are not up to speed in regard to that documentable global reality, I have provided you referenced reading material that should be of benefit. After all, if you are going to come to a gunfight against the godless (or against those of differing religious stripes which, in the minds of many competing believers, amounts to being godless), you might want to have the larger arsenal of facts at your disposal.

Alas, you have ignored those facts (and in this thread continue to do so), even though I have provided you study recommendations that would serve you well in your arguments--given that they would inform you of long-standing historical realities regarding wide-ranging religious madness and mayhem manifested by Christian and non-Christian religious believers alike--ones that you seem intent on side-stepping. Prove that you are not deficient in that history by citing some of it here.

I believe a tidy summation of the incessant, worldwide, deity-rationalized reality of religious strife can be summed up simply: "My god can beat up your god."

(P.S.--My editing was for spelling and phraseology, not for content. Your posts, in my opinion, could use some-needed editing in of contextually-relevant facts which note the historical reality of planetary persecution between contesting religions throughout human history).



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 06:12PM by steve benson.

Persecution in parts of the globe is definitely real and should not be discounted. Select exaggerated claims of supposed persecution are also real.

What does any of this have to do with recovery of EXMormons???

It's a mindset that is often addressed here on RfM by a wide spectrum of recovering posters as an issue fundamentally relevant to LDSism. I summed that fact up in the last line of this thread's OP:

"Dear Jesus, save us from your followers (and that includes Mormons out there saddled with a similar persecution complex)."
_____


Thanks for asking (although one, not three, question marks would have been sufficient).

:)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 04:59PM by steve benson.

I've wondered the same thing. Apparently if you don't leave Mormonism & become a "strong atheist" you did it wrong.

. . . and you, as one of them, are doing your god-darndest to promote their point of view (without being deleted, I might add), as you strive to make your case that unless one becomes a "strong believer" one is doing it wrong.

But thanks for posting here--even though you continue to conveniently ignore the fundamentally false claim (per the quoted complainer's assault against "most media") which was at the heart of the his silly case in the first place. That's why, after I inconveniently decimated his contention with all that was needed--namely, a single reference which factually debunked his entire argument--he hasn't been back to pick up where he was let off. :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2014 06:01PM by steve benson.

If everyone agrees someone isn't thinking.

If your not pissing people off you aren't innovating.

If all your friends think the same way as you do, you don't have any friends.

Diversity never killed anyone.

Lovely! I may not agree with you on religion but here we do. I would add, "If you want to be heard you also must listen."

. . . often takes the form of irrational and thunderously inhumane, nonsense spouted, in this case, in the name of the Judeo-Christian "god":

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,69279



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2014 02:13AM by steve benson.

The class of "religious enthusiasts" includes many, many, many people outside of the Judeo-Christian(-Islamic) domain. *points to self, many groups in the West, and much of the Eastern part of the world*

Not saying that absolutely nothing "irrational" or "inhumane" came from any of them even once. Just making a point that it is wise not to generalize too much.

No disrespect intended, and my sincere apologies if any was perceived.

Indeed, it is its own worst enemy, as attested to as simple matter of its primitive, backward record, laid out in its very own pages:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fskepticsannotatedbible.com%2Fcruelty%2Flong.html&ei=PSBRU7jVNOP42AXHnoG4Bg&usg=AFQjCNGee9wGRT3b8yOJCSzEFAvxzvr50w&bvm=bv.65058239,d.b2I



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2014 09:08AM by steve benson.

Folded into the OP at the top of this thread for your continued reading enjoyment. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2014 02:14AM by steve benson.

The complainer said:

"I share your revulsion at the attack on those people in Kansas. Kudos on the cartoon. I expect you to publish a similar cartoon the next time the group that wants to wipe Christians, Jews and Hindus off the face of the earth commits a terrorist attack."

I think what bothers ME is that the complainer thinks that you MUST give everyone equal time in your cartoons. That's like telling a rock musician that he's being unfair unless he puts out a gospel album, or telling a painter to stop painting so many mountains and give the desert equal time, or telling a science fiction writer they should give equal time to writing romances.

Artists create according to what moves them, what speaks to them AT THAT TIME.