I wonder, because thinking that GBH was having cancer treatments at age 97-while allegedly having weekly meetings with jesus- makes me think he wanted to avoid death.

So, considering JS escapades and antics, would he not have to be an atheist in order to not fear damnation at judgement day?

Or did he actually really start to believe his own BS?

Joseph Smith was most certainly an atheist, laughing all the way to the bank (and the bedroom) for fooling all the dumb hicks who fell under his thrall.

This is also true of modern church and cult leaders; they're always smarter than the flocks they're fleecing.

No, because that would give atheists a bad name

It's not as if he ever admitted to being an atheist. And it's not like all atheists are decent people.

'Twas a joke

I know from experience that some of the most self-righteous men live like atheists. They really don't believe in judgment, karma, or poetic justice. They are ravenous and consume everything in their paths without apology. But they are a minority among atheists. A lot of unbelievers are not acquisitive. My guess is that Joseph Smith was an exception.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2014 02:15AM by donbagley.

Atheism is no guarantee against psychopathy. I'd venture that most cult leaders are psychopathic atheists. Ken Ham is a particularly good example.

NoMoNoHow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Atheism is no guarantee against psychopathy. I'd
> venture that most cult leaders are psychopathic
> atheists. Ken Ham is a particularly good example.

I'm no fan of Ham's special brand of nutbaggery, but what leads you to conclude he's an atheist? From what I've seen, he's a sincere wackjob. But, admittedly, I haven't followed his antics all that closely.

Sorry, doesn't make much sense to me

Well, if he was a Christian he would have knowingly been committing blasphemy by adding to the Bible and willfully lying with all of his ludicrous Jesus-went-to-America BS.

The only other alternative is he was telling the truth... and most people are here because he was not.

I think he was a believer in something. What exactly that was, we'll never know. I don't think he expected to be shot that day, so maybe before that he had grand plans to meet his "God" under different circumstances.

He was a believer in free cash and non-stop copulation.

What if you have that reversed?

How would we know? Because it works either way.

NoMoNoHow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The only other alternative is he was telling the
> truth.

This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. Two
extremes are presented and one shot down. It is then asserted
that therefore the other extreme must be correct.

NoMoNoHow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, if he was a Christian he would have
> knowingly been committing blasphemy by adding to
> the Bible...

The "bible" was added to for a long time. And it wasn't even a "bible" until a committed decided it was, and what books went in it.

The compilation of chosen for their doctrine books that is "the bible" contains no divine prohibition against adding to it, either. The line in "Revelation" refers to the "book" of "Revelation." Not the "bible," which didn't exist when "Revelation" was written.

Yeah, Smith was a con man and a liar. But not a heretic for "adding to the bible."

As for him being an atheist...got me. From the evidence, it appears he certainly, at least at first, believed in the supernatural. Later on, when he had done so many dishonest things and had no supernatural punishment, he might have figured there might not be a "god" at all, or at least not one that actually does anything to or with humans.

I think he was a believer. Lots of believers act as if what they believe is not actually true- believing in god is by no means a guarantee that you will follow god's rules. (There is a lot of disagreement on what those rules are anyway)

I get the sense that Joseph started buying into his own bullshit by the end. The lie kept growing and growing and people kept doing what he asked. People were fanatically devoted to him. Maybe at some point he starts to lie to himself, "maybe I am a prophet," and he starts thinking he is more than just lucky, he is invincible.

I absolutely don't think the only possible options are "Joseph was an atheist" or "Joseph was telling the truth."

soju Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get the sense that Joseph started buying into
> his own bullshit by the end. The lie kept growing
> and growing and people kept doing what he asked.
> People were fanatically devoted to him. Maybe at
> some point he starts to lie to himself, "maybe I
> am a prophet," and he starts thinking he is more
> than just lucky, he is invincible.
>
> I absolutely don't think the only possible options
> are "Joseph was an atheist" or "Joseph was telling
> the truth."


This. This absolutely makes the most sense to me. He started it out as a con, a scam to make money. Then, when he saw that he could get a loyal, if gullible, following (and extra poon, too), I think he convinced himself of his own B.S.

Joseph Smith did not "start" "this" in the "beginning" for monetary gain. He was a young 14 year old boy who was inspired by a scripture in the Bible that stated "if any of you lack wisdom... Ask and it will be given unto you..." To learn which church among several in and around his home he should align himself. He honestly wanted to know the truth. He went into a grove, knelt down and began to offer up his sincere prayer. He "started" "this whole thing" by executing a humble prayer, and not for monetary gain, I assure you.

Except he could never seem to remember the date or even year that happened...

Or even what happened.

Barbara Joy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Smith did not "start" "this" in the
> "beginning" for monetary gain. He was a young 14
> year old boy who was inspired by a scripture in
> the Bible that stated "if any of you lack
> wisdom... Ask and it will be given unto you..." To
> learn which church among several in and around his
> home he should align himself. He honestly wanted
> to know the truth. He went into a grove, knelt
> down and began to offer up his sincere prayer. He
> "started" "this whole thing" by executing a humble
> prayer, and not for monetary gain, I assure you.

Ah yes--a monumental, life-changing event for an innocent 14-year-old. Which, of course, explains why he didn't mention it to ANYONE for nearly a decade. And then when he did start communicating this fantastic story, he couldn't keep any of the names, dates, or details straight. He totally couldn't have been making up a past "experience" to convince people to follow him. Nope, not possible.

Joseph Smith couldn't even remember who showed up in the grove, and who he talked to.

madalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Smith couldn't even remember who showed up
> in the grove, and who he talked to.

^. One would think if God the Father, God the Sun, and/or bunch of angels (depending on the version) appear to you, the details just might stand out.

Speaking of monetary gain:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,808608,821240



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2016 08:31PM by baura.

Barbara Joy, also of importance, Jesus wants you for a sunbeam!

William Law said he thought so.

"As to Emma's deathbed declaration, it was like her life, FALSE. If she ever had any good in her, Smith so demoralized her, that she had none left. Anything for money and power and gratification while she lived, and the same to her sons after her. She and the Smiths, as many as I knew, were infidels, if not atheists, at least I believe so."

http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/newsletters_articles/newsweek/newsweek/lawint2.htm

So perhaps Joseph Smith gained a testimony by bearing one?

JS knew he had a "get out of hell free" card.

Maybe GBH wasn't so sure. His desperate avoidance of death sure smells funny. I'd have preferred to see him go the same way as Joseph.

I think you can explain Hinckley's desperate avoidance of death by referring to his gigantic ego. He was convinced that no one could spin the media like he could. The church would fall apart without him.

White Cliffs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you can explain Hinckley's desperate
> avoidance of death by referring to his gigantic
> ego. He was convinced that no one could spin the
> media like he could. The church would fall apart
> without him.

He had good reason to think that. I think that is one time Gordo was right. I do not think things are going too well for LDS Inc, particularly with regard to their young people. We are witnessing the collapse.

He may not have technically been an atheist but he certainly wasn't afraid of God nor did he respect God. He saw no problem with using God to manipulate and take advantage of people. He could have believed but been such a narcissist he thought he was entitled to do whatever and God be d@mned.
Hinckley, on the other hand, either didn't believe in God or was afraid to meet him. Imo.

I don't think J Smith was an atheist. That just doesn't fit his diaries, talks, etc. He actually believed he was a prophet and that God was with him.

Dan Vogel uploaded an excellent video on the matter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4JlJaD2fks

I personally think he had some kind of mental disease. If you read "Rough Stone Rolling", it is clear that he feared absolutelly nothing and no one, be it lying, beginning grandiose projects, seducing married women or doing physically heroic acts.

Perhaps it was Antisocial personality disorder or some other like it.

I look at the end of his life for more confirmation he was just a gangland goon and regular world crook when he found it necessary to have a gun.

Had I spoken with God and was chosen as he claims then I would have had faith in deliverance from enemies having the God of Miracles with me. That's a no brainer to me.

I think he was an atheist but one with no morals, no conscience, no scruples, no respect for others or their well being but only of himself and what he could get. The world is full of them running MLM scams promising suckers wealth and well being.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2014 04:57PM by zeezrom.

Are all the believers in prison really just atheists?

Actually, we know what Smith was--he was a Mormon.

He believed in power - not karma, fear of God or bearing his test-a-monkey... sounds pretty mush like an atheist.

Yes, he was an atheist.

Maybe. He should have been, since he figured out how to use religion on gullible people. If this is true, it should apply to most religious leaders though.

OTOH, maybe he actually came to believe he really was what he claimed. There are plenty of religious bullsh!tters who actually believe they are God's little helpers.

it's the "all bad people are
atheists" trope once again.

Joseph Smith was first and foremost a psychopath.
If you look up psychopaths you will see he exhibits all or most of the characteristics.

I would categorise him as this rather than any type of religious man.

Smith was such a lying sack of shit that I don't think that he even knew the truth about what he believed.

I agree with those that have noted his narcissism and suggested that he was a full on psychopath. He was entirely without empathy for others and he was a God unto himself. Hence his eventual doctrinal evolution that pulled God out of the heavens and placed himself on the same strata.

If he had any authentic religious beliefs whatsoever, they included some sort of Universalist notions. It seems pretty clear to me that he thought of himself as a super-man with a superior nature that exempted him from having to show restraint and conduct himself like the commoners should. (D&C 19, Letter to Nancy Rigdon)

The fact that he had that Jupiter talisman in his possession when he died strongly suggests to me that he believed in some sort of spiritual realm that could be accessed by spells and incantations by those that had the skill. In contrast, regular folks like you and me can't be trusted with this Gnosis and need that "Old-time Religion" given to us good and hard. (D&C 19)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2016 09:45AM by westerly62.

Gordon B Hinkley did not have weekly meetings with any God. He said God had never appeared to him or even actually spoken with him. At least he (Gordon B Hinkley) told the truth once in his life.

He clearly believed in magic and all that it entailed at that time. Which included spirits and such. I believe that would cancel out any theory that he was atheist.

Gordon B. Stinckley, profit, anti-queer and prevaricator was afraid to die. It kind of tells it all right there.

Definitely do not think JS was atheist. He was raised with religion, sought out religion and created his own religion, attended church, did sermons. He was messed up and so was his religion, but that does not make him atheist. I agree with TheOtherHeber that he may have had a personality disorder - I definitely believe that. I think that having gotten such a large group of followers in a short time, and having been able to get them to do whatever he wanted really helped his delusions of grandeur - from poor farm boy, to glass-looker, to author, to Prophet, seer, revelator, mayor, General, and wanna-be President of the United States. He probably believed GOD was endowing him with all these powers.

Spot on.

Nicely put, DonBagley.

I believe it was Fawn Brodie who said Joseph Smith had two deep
desires in life, to obey God and to have a good time. Joseph
solved his dilemma by having God command him to have a good time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2016 08:41PM by baura.

No.

You've had a vision?

Or do you have observations to support your contention?

From the ExMo perspective, he was either insane or knew he was lying when he made up his religion.

Was he simply not afraid of the ghawd he was pretending to quote, or did he not believe such a ghawd existed?

A yes or no question deserves a simple straightforward answer.

Anyone with half a brain would know from his life he was not an atheist. Even as a charlatan he had reverence for the mysterious and divine.

Wail away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2016 03:57PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A yes or no question deserves a simple
> straightforward answer.
>
> Anyone with half a brain would know from his life
> he was not an atheist. Even as a charlatan he had
> reverence for the mysterious and divine.
>
> Wail away.


Apparently full-brained 'anyones' don't share your same degree of certainty.

Smith wore a lot of labels. But to his death, the one thing he held onto was his belief and fear in almighty God.

He was a narcissist, an egomaniac, maybe insane. But he was no atheist.

Anyone who believes that is still drinking the Mormon kool-aid, as in delusional.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2016 04:25PM by Amyjo.

I don't think that Joseph was an atheist. Psychotic, yes, but atheist, no.

As far as mormonism goes, I think either Joseph was not happy with the religions in his neighborhood (even though he did join a Methodist church appear his supposed first vision), and decided to create his own.

Or...

He wanted fame and power and created his own religion. Makes me wonder if he joined the Methodist church to get ideas for his own religion, just like he used the "Views of the Hebrews" for the "Book of Mormon."

Around the time I was discovering the truth about TSCC, I remember watching a documentary on Warren Jeff, and thinking "He sounds like a modern day Joseph Smith." Taking control, believing in his own BS, and the people following him believing in it too.

A little off topic, but I had to get that off my chest!

I think Joseph started seeing himself as God. What god he worshiped before himself is anyone's guess.

I see in him that he was about as transparent as most people are about their belief system.

That he made/created a religion out of nothing, to make a life for himself and his family was an extension of his earlier life as a treasure hunter.

He grew up dirt poor. He didn't know what to do or how to do it for a living. He had an aversion to hard physical labor, but had some kind of charisma and capacity to draw people to him enough to start and keep a following going. He became addicted to his own notoriety and success. He became "King of the Hill," in essence of his self-appointed game.

But taking him at face value, he was always a believer. That was part of his charm was his transparency - the part he wanted his followers to see. He lived by his wits, to make a life from nothing. He just didn't see his early demise before it was too late, or he may have been able to change the course of his life. What he lacked was humility and wisdom. He might've been a really good preacher were it not for his narcissism, that made him want to elevate himself to god status.

I have reason to believe that he believed in mammonism.