Many on this board no longer believe in God. That being the case, can marriage be "sacred?"


In another vein, what good is it to take marriage vows 'for time and all eternity' or 'until death do you part' when it is understood that the contract can and will be broken if things don't work out as planned?

Or, are the vows simply intended to be based on a "good faith" effort?

There is more vile hatred in marriage than in any other institution.

- - - - -

“It sickens me to admit this, but the divorce rate is the same for religious couples as it is for non-religious couples. Is it preposterous for us to think that we can love someone for a lifetime? Marriage is held together with such flimsy things--lace, promises and tolerance. We humans are so unskilled at sustaining intimacy. We begin with such high hopes, yet lose our way so quickly."

- Michael Ben Zehabe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2014 07:59PM by brotherjoseph.

"There is more vile hatred in marriage than in any other institution."

That's a good point. I bet if you put George Bush and Sadam Hussein in the same room together, they would behave more civil than half the marriage partners out there.

Actually, civil laws have a great deal to do with the rate of divorce. Depending on the divorce laws between states the variance was huge until even New York adopted "no fault". Until near that time, into the 1960s only the rate of divorce was only one in twenty marriages while ultimately under "no fault" is becomes 8 in ten!

Well, sure. I mean, if it's illegal or really, really hard to get a divorce, there won't be many divorces. That doesn't mean people were happily staying together and wonderfully working things out, though -- it just means they couldn't legally divorce. :)

I was married "for time and all eternity" to my high school sweetheart back in 1970. 4 children later in 1993, my eternal companion came out as a gay man. Divorce.

Rebound marriage a year later to a nice enough guy but who turned out not to be compatible and so we parted. divorce.

Now, exmo and living with someone (he is never mo) who gave me a ring nearly 4 years ago. I don't know that we will ever marry. My mormon kids want us to because I think they are embarrassed that their mother is shacking up, but it seems to be a better arrangement for me. For some reason, it just doesn't feel like we HAVE to get married and if we do part, it won't be messy like the last two divorces. I've got documents in place for the distributing of my estate if I die. This works for us.

Losing my religion seemed to free me from the idea I had to be married to have a fulfilling and sexual relationship with someone.

There are many types of marriage; gay, lesbian, open, sexless, convenient, spiritual, arranged, hetro, secular, religious, plural, poly amorous.

In most (all?) cases the sacredness or otherwise of the marriage is determined by those involved. couples married for financial and other "convenient" reasons can be just as sacred as people married for religious/emotional reasons.

Some people will think that god has ordained their marriage as sacred,others will not and base their marriage on a social/emotional footing to provide the depth of reason and feeling to cement their commitment.

Overall, I think that the vast majority of people will think their marriage is sacred, but the form of reason this takes is variable.

When TBM's repeat the phrase, they are referring to a specific expression of marriage, namely the "traditional" type, in which the man rules and the woman cooks and cleans. What they mean, as with everything else, is that "Us" is sacred/ordained of God/not to be challenged under any circumstances. In part "Us" is defined by that kind of marriage, so of course it also must be sacred.

It is entirely incomprehensible to most TBMs that any other sort of marriage arrangement could possibly have any validity in the eyes of God.

or I hope at least that the vows my wife and I took were sacred even if the marriage itself isn't.

I've been married just under six years. In my case I suppose time will tell.

Mine is sacred to me on a personal level....the vows we exchanged are sacred to us....nobody else matters.

Ron Burr

Marriage is not sacred but the commitments to a partner are, regardless if the relationship is a marriage.

Yes...

A marriage is sacred if both partners want it to be.

I agree with others. It depends on your definition of sacred... The Mormon definition...? A marriage can be 'sacred' to a person, or couple. Also, people have different reasons for being married, but there are positives and negatives. My marriage has been great for personal growth.

Mine is to me. Even though I'm a heretical apostate atheist. The bond between two people is deeply human and undeniably beautiful, at least to me. I see religion as an invasion into that relationship.

Marriage is too sacred for gays but not too sacred for divorce. Something is wrong with this picture.

Our relationship is in a way. We are commited to eachother and to our family.

The being married itself is just a legal issue. It makes it easier on all sorts of legal and organisational fronts with children and such to be married.

I define marriage as the highest level of commitment you can enter into with a person you love. No church has the right to dictate how committed you want to be to that someone. Back when the whole prop 8 thing was going on, this was a major factor that turned me off to the church. Telling gay people they aren't allowed to make the highest level of commitment with someone they love communicates to them they are less straight people, and aren't capable of love like straight people are.

On a separate note, I remember learning in college that lots of different animals such specific species of monkeys, fish, and birds are monogamous while others are not, and they get along just fine. Why would a god not make all animals monogamous then, if it were so important?

Love is sacred. Marriage is many things.

+1

Marriage is so sacred we have a game show where the winner gets engaged st the end....well juan pablo was supposed to propose. Lol

Sure marriage can be sacred. Whether a believer, or not, a married couple certainly can have a feeling of scaredness concerning their "union". The issue revolves around "the church" pounding the idea that only "they" have the keys to sacredness. The most beautiful service I have ever attended for a marriage was Catholic. And the bride wore a plunging neckline. I am beginning to believe sacred is very personal, and can grow between two people. It doesn't have to have a corporate machine as a vehicle to artificially create it.

sometimes their toes touch and they pirouette
hands held out clasped
shoulders leaned back heads lean out in ecstacy
dancers on the solar winds

that dance solomente in trios a pair
hands held arching through life's wind


yeah that can be, holy its your dance its up to you
if you do it or what you think of it

2 people married to each other get bored and tired of each other after years of tolerating each other. They hurt each other in a passive/agressive fashion, sometimes in just aggressive fashion. Some spouses delight in inflicting as much verbal and emotional torture as is possible.

Marriage is a bad idea.

Just because some marriages end up like that doesn't mean marriage is a bad idea for everyone. I've been married for over two decades and that has not been my experience. I think the same thing could happen to couples whether they are married or not. I don't think it is the married factor that destroys it.

Marriage in this country is first and foremost a legal contract between 2 people. Anything beyond that is strictly in people's head and magical thinking.

Mine was wonderful for almost 50 years until death did us part.

I don't really like the word "sacred" anymore, but I absolutely think marriage is *important*. Not in an "everyone needs to get married and base their lives around marriage" way, but in a "these two people have made a huge commitment to each other it is worth respecting that" kind of way.

Is any contract sacred?

Just for the heck of it let's define "sacred" as it pertains to marriage, and not in the Biblical sense. According to The Free Dictionary by Farlex, sacred means "dedicated or devoted to a single person" and "worthy of respect". So if you married with the intent of being dedicated and devoted to one person and you have respect for marriage, then it seems marriage was sacred to you at that time. If you continue with those ideas, then marriage seems to remain sacred to you. However, if after 16 years and 3 children, you fuck your skank secretary for 6 months, then your marriage apparently is not sacred to you, if it ever was in the first place. Now that we all have a better understanding of the definition of "sacred" perhaps we can decide for ourselves if our own marriages mean that much to us. BTW, if you are on the verge of screwing someone other than your spouse, please read on the Internet about the devastating pain you will be causing your marriage partner and how long it takes to heal from this insult. Please also read the damage it does to your children, to your extended family and to yourself. No one cares about skank or jerk. Let them suffer. If you choose to look the other way and not read about what will happen to your spouse because of your actions then you really don't give a damn and you are a very selfish person with poor moral character. One last comment to a wayward spouse and to the skank or jerk who is enticing them . . . married is married, separated is married, divorced is not married. Leave the married ones alone, even the separated ones because there is the possibility that they are working on reconciliation.

It is to my wife and I and it has nothing to do with religion. It's a personally scared relationship we share.

I do think marriage is sacred. Not from a religious perspective. From a human one. But I think, from my own experience, that common law marriage is best.

Been married twice. First time for 30 years. It was never good. The piece of paper changed 'love' into a business contract. There is a saying: the guy who marries you never wants you to change. The gal says she can't wait to change you.

My second marriage lasted 4 years. I didn't want to have another investment go south so we spent 18 months dating. We talked about all our boundaries. Mine were fine with her. Hers were as well. The day after our marriage she began her best to tear down my boundaries. To remake me. That's where the sacred part comes in for me. Marriage is all about mutual respect and trust. A 'sacred' bargain and promise.

I met a wonderful woman last year. We have made a commitment to be married in trust and respect, but no paper. I love her dearly. Can tell she feels the same. Our lives are so peaceful. It's something I wasn't looking for. It just happened. So awesome. Hand in glove. Yeah, I have a 'sacred marriage' based on who we are.

I think the paper contract changes everything for the worse.

Nothing is "sacred" ("worthy of religious veneration" : "entitled to reverence and respect"). IMHO.

I don't care if other people live together without being married, get married, or whatever floats their boat.

I got married 24 years ago because I wanted to commit to one woman, and give and get the benefits (social, legal, and personal) that go with that. It's worked out great. If it hadn't, I would have been disappointed, of course. But I *would* have gotten out of it -- and maybe tried again. Maybe not.

I generally find the "but marriage is sacred!" crowd to be unthinking, rule-obeying, inflexible people. I don't much care for that kind of person.

Does anyone here think that sex outside of marriage can be sacred? That the love between a committed, yet unmarried couple to each other is sacred? If the answers are yes, then what does marriage add? Is it the commitment that's sacred, or the certificate? Because they're not mutually exclusive.

There are plenty of loveless marriages. There are plenty of abusive marriages. How are these more sacred than an unmarried couple who are deeply committed to each other?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 06:40PM by focidave.

The problem is that the word "marriage" is used to cover so many different things. In many cultures, there are many legal aspects to marriage. There are also religious aspects. And non-religious cultural aspects. Wildly different cultural aspects.

Religions often seem to want to define marriage as "only the specific religious aspects that our church supports." For them, marriage is a sacred, religious state which has no meaning or even no true existence outside of their particular religion's definition. That's what the "defense of marriage" laws claim to be about. And yet, many of those churches have lots of divorced members. And divorced clergy.

However, outside of the religious aspects, marriages can still be sacred to the individuals involved. This definition of "sacred" comes from the couple themselves, and probably needs no outside validation from a church or government.

And for others, marriage is a legal contract. Convenient for certain purposes, but open to be either ended or renegotiated.

Ultimately, I think, it's the individuals involved who make the relationship sacred for themselves, in their own way. Most of my closest friends have had civil marriages. Those marriages have lasted and become stronger and deeper over the years because of the commitment of the two partners involved. No religion at all, but still sacred.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 07:10PM by peculiargifts.

To those who consider divorce reprehensible: The leading cause of divorce is marriage.

Judging by the choices-decisions of tscc... It might have been at one time, but that's long past. Currently, it's little more than a PR angle.

No. Humanity and friendship aren't either but they are the closest we have to something divine.

Marriage is a relatively recent social construct. It can be anything you want it to be. If your marriage is sacred to you, then marriage is sacred.

define sacred....

After being married 33 years, I can say that marriage is a joke.

You either like each other or you don't - promising to like someone doesn't make it happen.

Reminds me of people who love to eat junk food, committing to a diet, which is why 90% fail. When they finally don't want the junk, they will lose weight.

It has been said that a good man doesn't need to make promises, and a bad man won't keep them.

The other problem is that most go into marriage thinking they're going to get more than they give. Usually lust for sex or money is what drives it. When most people say "I love you", they mean they want what you have. I really doubt my wife would have married me had I been a janitor.

And so we offer stuff before marriage, and make it look like we're going to give, and then after marriage, we slack off and try to give as little as possible to get as much as possible. A big power game.

All good for the wedding industry, and the lawyer industry, and the courts, and whatever. Lots of money to be made in marriage and the resulting divorces.

I'm not married yet, but after reading through everyone's answer here, it looks like the answer is:

only if you've married the right person for you, and the idea of marriage is important to both of you.

I think it's what you make of it in the end. None of us can make a blanket statement about it in general. To each her/his own.

Was thinking of the idea that marriage is a contract. But I can't think of where I would find that piece of paper and the agreement therein.

I mean, were there specifications regarding frequency of sex, income, household chores, dates, spending of money, etc?

Apparently the agreement is intentionally vague, so those entering think they're going to get more than they give. Then the disappointment hits.

It is all fantasy, just like religion. Somehow getting married will take care of all your problems, just like a god - get a bunch of free stuff.

I don't believe that marriage is sacred or necessary. A family, however--once had--is sacred. We should be ready to sacrifice for our children, and for our spouses or partners. But what Mormons revere as sacred marriages, and that thing that so many call "the sanctity of marriage," is something in which I no longer believe.

As long as you make marriage about your commitment to your religion and not about the commitment to your spouse..you are on a slippery slope.

Marriage is essentially a committed agreement that should mutually benefit each party.

Ages ago, countries arranged marriages to unify their countries and strengthen alliances. It was a political agreement.

Social structures demanded that people from higher society levels mate and reproduce, so legal agreements were made for these appearances.

Could love exist and even thrive in these arrangements? Why not, but not likely in my opinion. Any time you put a condition on a relationship that could be broken...instead of cherishing the person in the relationship,...you are adding to the risk of the relationship.

NO relationship has a guarantee of success. Marriage is a far more complicated arrangement where many participants have unrealistic and often unspoken expectations.

I am not anti marriage, but I have no desire to be married again. For me, LOVE is sacred and has nothing to do with a ring and a piece of paper.

RMM