After reading the recent Bushman AMA and being emailed, yet again, Givens' "Letter to a Doubter," I'm scratching my head as to what these guys actually believe in. I'm not convinced they believe that the church's foundational events literally happened. They seem to focus more on the question "is the church good?" rather than "is the church 'true?'" this re-framing of the question doesn't work for me, but I recognize that it does for some that have encountered church history issues.

That being said, does anybody know, or has had personal dealings with, Richard Bushman or Teryl Givens? If so, what sense do you have of their level of belief or what strategy they use to defy logic and ignore the reality of who Joseph Smith truly was?

It's like they're still at the stage I was at when realized the church wasn't true but I still defended it because I was still attached to it like a wife sticking up for her abusive husband. They still, somehow see the good, but can't see how the base outweighs it so they still try to justify it. It took me several years to realize whatever "good" comes out of the church is far outweighed by the bad. I realized that the church is more about busy work and as serving the organization than actual people I realized there was no point in defending it.

At a recent stake fireside given by Bushman he bore his testimony that when he lives the teachings of the church it makes him the type of man he wants to be. The stake president complained about it afterwards, saying something like "that wasn't a testimony at all."

Very interesting. This is a common theme of Bushman. But you are exactly right, this type of "testimony" is nothing like the definitive "I know the church is true" declarations that so much of the church expects. The squishiness coming from Bushman and Givens is far too nuanced for so many orthodox members.

In my TBM days, I would have asked why the author of RSR, and the preeminent scholar on Joseph Smith, didn't have a pulpit-pounding testimony of Joseph Smith the the church's foundational events.

If Bushman didn't offer a traditional testimony, then he has all my respect, and I can forgive him for staying in the church. He really is quite a historian in his other work, and RSR is NOT the faith-promoting miracle book that some TBM's imagine it to be. It's not a full account either, but it naturalizes Joseph Smith and his world to such an extent that you can't see him as a prophet once you've read it.

Bushman is something like 83 years old. He's lived all the Mormon roles, including stake president, patriarch, faithful scholar, and loyal critic of the church. I wouldn't expect him to do anything other than what he's doing.

I know Givens, we are in the same stake. I like him and his wife. They seems to be on the mainstreaming track and are becoming amateur apologists. Difficult or near impossible to be an apologist and not have doubts on at least some of the history and doctrine.

I love one of his quotes concerning the peep stone and the hat:

That is not dignified; that is not what I have been taught; who's been lying to me.

He showed the SouthPark scene where people are in hell and the correct answer was them Mormons. This was during a fireside waiting for the SP to arrive.

Well hello popeyes, we may know each other. I know the Givens too, we're in a neighboring stake. Are you active or out at the moment? I tried to pm you, but I don't know if the board allows that.

I think the Givens are sincere in their faith but have doubts about some aspects of Mormonism. They are very nice people. I know she thinks polygamy was not divinely inspired.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2014 12:26PM by twistedsister.

I don't know Givens, but I'm glad someone else can't figure him out either. I was recently emailed "Letter to a Doubter" by a family member also. I really tried to stay focused and read through it three times and still don't get it. I really don't know how I'm supposed to respond to the email or why the person who sent me Givens letter thinks its supposed to bring back my testimony.

I recently listened to Givens on Dehlin's Mormon Stories podcasts as well and that didn't help either. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. Whether I read Givens or listen to him, I feel like I'm on a meandering path that leads nowhere.

These folks are not worth spending the time on. Leave them behind and look outside of Mormonism for direction in life.