It seems like whenever one criticizes one of the tenets of Christianity all we ever get in response is a variant of...

"I don't know that we teach that".

If a person brings up something like transubstantiation or the new star in the East, then the Christians start screaming, "straw man"!

There was a lot of gnashing if teeth on the "debunking Christianity" thread. Christians are quick to yell foul, but seem shy as a 21st Century Mormon Prophet when it comes to actually defining their beliefs.

How 'bout it, Christians? Anyone willing to put up their beliefs for public discussion? Or will you just continue to hide behind calling your critics ridiculous for accusing you of believing what has been taught from your bible for many Centuries?

Yep. I thought as much.

Who are the Christian posters in those threads besides paidinfull?

There used to be great battles on RfM between the Christians and the Atheists.

Haven't seen a skirmish in a loooong time.

They used to be such fun...

Yep, the debates were entertaining, and interesting, for me at least.

Freddo and sonoma, for Roman Catholics and traditional Protestants, we cannot believe anything we want-- we use those things JS hated, creeds, aka the basic tenents of faith. I don't mind pitching one out for discussion if you like.

After reading the essays, it seems everything in mormomism is subject to change, except the necessity of temple recommends and the sanctity of Joseph Smith. If I was placing bets, I wouldn't down on those two either.

constantly begin forced into changing in order to try and salvage some relevancy in the civilized world.

Those who stay have created a god and a savior who they can be comfortable with.

If a billion Christians have each created their own god, what are the odds that any one is correct?

They certainly all can't be right.
BUT
They COULD all be wrong.
No?

I am not a believer and if Sonoma ever read my posts he would know that. I do believe in a higher power of sorts,but otherwise have no definitive beliefs. I do find religion interesting though,but that hardly makes me religious.

Sorry bd, it's been a while.

I forgot that you weren't a Christian, but simply RfM's leading apologist for the Catholic Church! ;)

That is bull.

How 'bout Calf?

Now, don't get your supportive undergarments all twisted in knots, Bona. You KNOW that you get huffy whenever anyone criticizes Catholicism here, and God forbid anyone say anything negative about the pope! You've been called out for your apologetics on many occasions over the years.

Search your feelings; you know this to be true. You are a Catholic apologist. Own it. Be true to yourself, and be honest with the rest of us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2014 01:28PM by En Sabah Nur.

Grow up. I correct misinformation and there is a lot of it here

So pretty much anything negative said about Catholicism is "misinformation." Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't know, but I got called shallow (among other things) for dismissing organized religion.

I know Sonoma, it's easier to believe that everyone else is just as stupid as you for falling for Mormonism.

This is a site put out specifically for to help those who are leaving the LDS church. Calling someone stupid here, specifically for having believed in said church is less than helpful.

The large majority of the people here were taken in by the lies of the church for one reason or another. Getting out from under the thumb of the church has been extremely difficult for almost everyone here. I may not agree with some of the posters here, but the vast majority I think it can be safely said are not stupid, nor were they stupid for having been a member of the church. There are a lot of reasons for having been a member and even having been duped into converting, few of them involve the victim being stupid.

If you want to disagree, that's all well and good, disagree away, but name calling and referring to someone as "stupid" because of their former membership in the church really doesn't help you in any way here.

Yep. Those skirmishes were fun.

I don't want to talk for bona because maybe I'm wrong, but I think she's been clear that she is at most a deist, does not practice a religion and comes to the subject mainly as one interested in history and catholic culture.

I'm a Christian because ive Decided I can believe anything I want

Or not believe it.

Modern Christianity is pretty good that way

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems like whenever one criticizes one of the
> tenets of Christianity all we ever get in response
> is a variant of...
>
> "I don't know that we teach that".
>
> If a person brings up something like
> transubstantiation or the new star in the East,
> then the Christians start screaming, "straw man"!
>
> There was a lot of gnashing if teeth on the
> "debunking Christianity" thread. Christians are
> quick to yell foul, but seem shy as a 21st Century
> Mormon Prophet when it comes to actually defining
> their beliefs.
>
> How 'bout it, Christians? Anyone willing to put up
> their beliefs for public discussion? Or will you
> just continue to hide behind calling your critics
> ridiculous for accusing you of believing what has
> been taught from your bible for many Centuries?

Of course there are many varieties of Christianity,
and even within a single sect, at any one time, there
may exist major differences in doctrine and practices.

But, generally speaking, traditional Christians and
their converts simply believe what they are told and
are unprepared for serious debate.

Even an experienced Jesuit polemicist will usually be
unprepared to dialogue with a questioner who does not
accept his foundational premises.

As for myself, I have not identified as a Christian
since graduation from theological seminary -- but I
suppose I can make some attempt at elucidating the
religion, if there is a particular point that you find
interesting.

UD

UD

I'd love to stay and play, but I have to go pick up my man and break some commandments!

Some other time we'll discuss the pros and cons of believing in superstitions in the 21st Century.

sonoma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Some other time we'll discuss the pros and cons of
> believing in superstitions in the 21st Century.

I get the impression that a binary choice is being
cited here -- either be a member of a religious
fellowship and "believe in superstitions," or do
not form such an association, and thus be free of
superstitious beliefs.

When I converse with. ex-Mormons I often encounter this
black and white view of human nature and community.

Perhaps you were never a believing Mormon, however --
I don't recall your history.

But, I would say that folks who have actually taken the
time to investigate religion as a human phenomenon --
and a variety of religious groups, in depth -- would not
characterize belonging to some Christian group as
necessarily involving the compulsion to believe superstition.

In my experience, I've known -- associated with -- have
been taught by -- a number of Christians belonging to
various sects, whom I'd not label "superstitious" or
unreasonable in their personal views.

It is only when the professed doctrines of the entire
membership are erroneously applied back upon such individuals
that they become candidates for mistaken stereotypes.

I recall my first week in the Navy, when I was thrown into
a company of Montana recruits, who concluded that I must
be a "spud picker" because I came from southern Idaho,
and a "chapel chaps" wearer, because I was a Latter Day Saint.

I was neither of those things, of course, but the stereotype
was applied and stuck with me all through several weeks of
basic training. I see the same absurd reductions of human
experience being applied to religionists in this on-line
forum, over and over again.

Would be happy to discuss such things with anybody truly
interested in exploring what religious membership has
meant to a wide variety of folks beyond Mormonism and
Protestant fundamentalism.

UD

As I've said before, I think you have some seriously interesting perspectives on religion and other topics.

I've read over many of your posts trying to figure out just what you think, and I'm still not sure. A lot of times you pose thought provoking questions and seem to hint at your views.

I'd really like to read an essay laying out your view of religion, God, etc. That's not too much to ask is it? :)

If I can formulate some more specific questions I'll come back and post them, but I think someone others might be better suited to lay out some questions. Of course, I'd like to see the threads full of good dialogue.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I've said before, I think you have some
> seriously interesting perspectives on religion and
> other topics.
>
> I've read over many of your posts trying to figure
> out just what you think, and I'm still not sure.
> A lot of times you pose thought provoking
> questions and seem to hint at your views.
>
> I'd really like to read an essay laying out your
> view of religion, God, etc. That's not too much
> to ask is it? :)
>
> If I can formulate some more specific questions
> I'll come back and post them, but I think someone
> others might be better suited to lay out some
> questions. Of course, I'd like to see the threads
> full of good dialogue.

You'll find some "hints" along those lines, here:
http://sidneyrigdon.com/DRB/RESTOR/restore2.htm

But I really do no wish to hijack sonoma's thread with
a lot of discussion of my personal views.

Basically, I see "religion" as involving whole range
of human experience (both good and bad) over millenia,
and encompassing theistic and atheistic communities,
as well as some "fringe" groups which overlap into the
established religions' activities, without necessarily
being a part of them (volunteerism, charities, etc.).

For better or for worse, "religion" has brought the human
family to where it is today. Even our ability to articulate
its faults and evils has been born out of our past heritage
of historical evolution within/under various religions.

Boiling it all down to just the evangelical theistic religions
and sects, I concur that a great deal of compelling argument
can be offered against "religion."

However, as already stated, my interests and viewpoint extend
beyond what is typically voiced by ex-Mormons in this forum,
regarding what they think "religion" might entail.

If you do start a new thread, I'll try to remember to look
for it, next time I visit here...

UD

Yes, they believe anything.

Christianity is more of a way of life rather than a religion. They assume everyone is a believer and believes in they same way they do. Actual theology and introspective thought is superseded by a set of popular beliefs and contrary views (such as Catholic support of social justice) are viewed as heretical. They are dogmatic and inflexible and it is impossible to argue with them. President Obama is thought to either be Satan or the Anti-Christ. It is not uncommon to see bumper stickers or signs in yards they say "God made the world in six days," "Abortion Is Murder," "Adam and Eve / Not Adam And Steve," "God Said It, I Believe It," "And Eye For And Eye," the ever-present "John 3:16" and so on. One of my favourites depicts a figure holding the Bible in one hand and an AR-15 rifle in the other reminiscent of the famous painting of John Brown. I have never understood why people want to voluntarily enthrall themselves to a rigid orthodoxy that suppresses freedom of thought but they do -- and in great numbers.

I hesitated to respond to this because I really don't want to get into a fight. I call myself a Christian but my definition of Christian would probably get me thrown out of a lot of churches in the conservative south where I live. I just wanted to add my perspective here.

In my opinion there a lot of people out there who claim to be Christian but don't act that way. They judge and act harshly. The ignore the words of Jesus. Those people frustrate me immensely.

What I believe in is essentially what Jesus said in the New Testament - love your neighbor, love God and love yourself. If you want to get into a technical argument about the validity of the bible, I'm probably not the person to go to. I am not a scientist and can't defend my beliefs that way. I'm also not a big fan of pulling out random sentences of scripture to support something and ignoring the entire context, like many of the Calvinist and fundamental believers do.

I think if people really read what Jesus said in the bible (not the Old Testament, not the non-gospel scriptures),they would realize that Jesus was a socialist, not a conservative, gun-toting, women and gay hating bigot. I believe that God made all of us and we are all perfect in his sight - both gay and straight, both male and female. I believe in service to others because we should help our fellow human beings, not because someone tells us to or because it makes us look good.

My DH and I picked the church we did because was the most truly Christ-like of any we had been to. Most churches where I live are segregated by race, ours is not. I have never, ever heard anything from the pulpit about homosexuals and sin and we have several gay members in our church. No one thinks anything of it. People at our church don't care what you wear or what kind of car you drive, they are just glad you showed up.

I have several close friends who have left the (non-Mormon) church - one because she is gay, another because she was scarred by her small town Southern Baptist upbringing. I don't think less of them because they don't believe and I don't try and convert them.

As to why I believe, there have been several personal experiences in my life that have made my faith come alive. I don't want to get into details here. And I apologize if it sounds like I have a Mormon "burning in my bosom." I think the difference is that my testimony (horrible word) lives within myself and I don't feel compelled to force it onto other people.

I think if I had escaped the clutches of Mormonism, I would have a hard time believing in God too. I understand why so many on this board are Atheist. I rarely get offended by the atheist comments here. In fact, the only one that has bothered me so far was the comment about God raping Mary to conceive Jesus. I thought that one was disrespectful and tacky. Other than that, I have a great deal of respect of the people on this board and I understand that many of you didn't make the decision to become an atheist lightly.

Sorry if I didn't give you the fight you wanted :)

You know what, Christianity is a big tent. You use your brain and your heart to choose which room fits you. That's the difference.

I'll play. This is my first post. I was born Roman Catholic. Have always believed in God. Have always wanted to know which was the correct religion. 'Left' Catholicism a few years ago, visited many different Christian churches, including the Mormon church, where I took the lessons. Eventually ended up back in my Catholic church after realising that no church is perfect, and excuse the expression but sometimes it it is a case of 'better the devil you know'!

In all my years, I've never found a more powerful force for good then what I found articulated in the Christian Bible, that of Long Suffering Charity. The problem is it's often not practiced well, or is easy to sustain, even within families, but when it is it's wonderful.

I've done this game. If you wanna talk faith, how about the Cambrian explosion? You need a leap of faith as well to swallow theories that aren't supported by the fossil record nor by biological processes as we know it. It's easy to argue that the Mormon church isn't true as it's beginnings are only a few years in the past, but biblical Christianity would be more difficult as historical records are scant (save only the Bible), but at least hold water to some extant after thousands of years.