Just reading page 23 of the 2010 Church Handbook and I'm wondering about the procedure for ordinances performed for excommunicated people - who never "came back" during their life time.
So... First Presidency approval is needed for anything to do with deceased excommunicated individuals BUT...
The ordinance "Restoration of Blessings" has to be performed for deceased excommunicated individuals - with First Presidency approval. So my questions are as follows for those of you who may know:
1) Obviously re-baptism and re-confirmation have to be performed for the deceased excommunicated individual - as well as restoration of blessings. BUT... where does the re-baptism and re-conformation happen? In the temple after approval is given?
2) What about restoration of blessings... does this happen in the temple aslo and by whom as for the living it is a member of the seventy or stake president? This obviously is said to restore all ordinances received when living.
3) But what if some ordinances were not received during the persons life time, such as "the new and everlasting covenant of (plural) marriage"? What if the widow/widower want to be sealed to the excommunicated individual? Do these ordinances also have to have First Presidency approval despite a re-baptism and restoration of blessings? The Church Handbook generally says that if they were excommunicated at the time of their death then approval is needed - there is no clause.
What will mormon family members be doing for those that were "cast out", "blotted out" and "cut off" after they have died?
All I know is that several years ago we requested ordainances done for DH's ex'd, decreased father. A few months later we received a letter from the 1st Pres stating all his temple blessings were restored. And that was that.
Yes, the "rules" are all over the place - but isn't that what you get when you're trying say the rules are God's but are made by man!?
And I thought it would just be a letter - wow, what great authority has God given to a letter. So no "by proxy" rule... No proxy re-baptism, re-confirmation and restoration of blessings. God just forgets it all.
Did the letter get sent directly to your family or was it via priesthood leaders?
Anyone who wants to turn in names does so and the work is done, usually more than once. Temples need those names to keep operating and it's assumed that mistakes and duplications can be corrected in the afterlife.
Mormons can't keep everyone attending, doing callings, and paying 10%, so they certainly can't force them to consistently follow little known handbook formalities which cover dead rituals.
Any extra need for temple names besides member submission is met by the extraction program, not by redoing names.
Duplication of names was an early problem (mostly pre-1950), because there was not an effective system in place to prevent it. TSCC began new databases to prevent this problem, but people did not check the IGI diligently. Now names have to be cleared for submission through TempleReady, a computer program, and duplicates are rejected.
Sources: Helen Radkey on Doris Hanson’s show, 19 Aug 2010 Helen’s 2nd appearance on Doris Hanson’s show 2 Sept 2010
[Edit: Old links deleted. See the updated/corrected links in my later post below.]
Helen states and emphasizes that ALL the information she is going to present is from MORMON databases, sites owned and operated by the LDS church.
From my notes:
Mormons who had been EXCOMMUNICATED BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN PRACTICING POLYGAMY when alive, NOW (i.e. after their death) HAVE BEEN SEALED TO ALL OF THEIR ILLEGAL POLYGAMIST WIVES!!!
Quoting Helen: “Mormons have no scruples about sealing divorced people.”
A number of well-known people who have been married many times have been sealed to multiple spouses.
Clark Gable – 5 wives. Sealed to one; 4 ready for sealing Rex Harrison – 5 wives 1997 Cary Grant – 4 wives Audrey Hepburn – 3 husbands. Sealed to 2 the same day in Sept., 2009 in the St. George temple Ernest Hemingway, who committed suicide: 5 wives, one of whom was never married to him in mortal life. Marilyn Monroe – 3 husbands. They also are sealed to other wives. Ex-spouses are sealed to ex-spouses, forming polygamy chains.
Sometimes if the man had children with a mistress, the mistress would be sealed to him so that their children could be sealed to the two of them.
April 8, 2010: Jesus Christ was baptized under the pseudonym “Jesus Cristian” (there were other indicators in the record that this was definitely Jesus, such as his birth in Bethlehem and death in his 30’s in Jerusalem) and confirmed a member of the Mormon faith in the Salt Lake Temple. Initiatory ordinances the same day,
Endowment on Apr 9 Temple marriage to Mary Magdalene Apr 9
Repeat: ALL of Helen's information is from LDS WEBSITES
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2011 10:08PM by WiserWomanNow.
>April 8, 2010: Jesus Christ was baptized under the pseudonym “Jesus Cristian”
What in the name of fucking hell were these shit-for-brain scum thinking of? >:oO
Really? They have the brass bollocks to baptise Jesus Christ into their stinking, festering running sore of a damnable filthy pox-scarred evil "church"??
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2011 05:35PM by matt.
so even though the "church" has his name in it, his baptism wasn't valid and had to be redone by Mormons. Think how long he had been waiting for it to happen, just so he could be a member of his "own" church.
I know my family will necrodunk me no matter how thoroughly I protest while living. I've just come to accept it, because it's all bullshit to me, and holds as much sway to me as if someone were dead-dunking a voodoo doll fashioned in my image.
I figure that means we've found the great mormon dogma loophole - we resign, do whatever the hell we want, and shortly after we've croaked, then.. bam! A fifteen-second baptismal ceremony performed on a twelve-year-old whose only thoughts are of secretly fearing the wrath of god because he lied about jacking off just to be there (maybe that was just me) in a wading pool held up by twelve marble bulls, and.. Back in the fold with the rest of the herd. It's so speshul, so byutiful.
(I pray that I'm wrong - an eternity with a bunch of fucking mormons would be misery. An eternity living on the wasatch front with its shitty weather with a bunch of fucking mormons would truly be an eternally hellish torment.)
You could take measures against such things by legaly changing your name to something profane or anti mormon shortly before expiring. Assuming you get that oportunity.
You should be able to have a written will or something saying that they can't do this! It's not fair. I mean, sure you're dead, who cares. But who the hell do they think they are!
There should be some law saying they can't do this if you don't want it done.
freeasabird Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > WTF? Jesus has to be dead dunked??? That's just > messed up!
I know, right!?!
Now I REALLY can't make sense of the Atonement. Why did Jesus have to die on a cross again, especially if he's "repented" of his sins, accepted himself into his own heart, and then had to be baptized again? What was the point of Atonement?
I'm not a Christian at all anymore, but if I were, I'd be furious as hell. That's just a slap in the face to any believing Christian, IMO. As an atheist, I find it hilarious.
That makes me sick....just the thought of being dead dunked makes me cringe...my Uncle's Mormon relatives...his sister did it for him...I thought my Aunt would kill them all...oh well..
No doubt when I croak and have a burial mass my ex said, they'll be done for me....he wants to see me in the hereafter...told him it won't be the Ck...come and visit in the next level down...where all the fun will be happening...golf, stuff like that.
I don't know if my case is any different. I resigned. After what happened at my daughter's funeral. I have written instructions concerning my funeral and concerning the temple ordinances. I don't want any Mormon official to speak, pray, or have any other forum to promote Mormonism. I don't want family members to have an opportunity to speak unless the guarantee that Mormonism will not be part of what they talk about.
While I do not believe in an after life, my family does. I have informed them that if they decide to submit my name for Mormon ordinances, I will haunt them until the day they die, and then be waiting for them when they cross over. I made this decision in my life and I expect them to honor it in death. If they do not, I will make them pay.
I guess I am a little bitter.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2011 07:30PM by Jim Huston.
I had a friend who received a call inviting him to attend the local temple the following Saturday for the restoration of blessings to an ancestor who was dead after excommunication. According to him the temple pres sat him in a chair and did the priesthood blessing thing and included the restoration of all ordinances, etc.
I forgot. No names submitted, no ordinances redone. This is no baptism for the dead or what not. And, of course, it came at the direction of the first pres.
When his/her temple blessings had been restored he/she just received a letter from the office of the Presiding Bishop that it had been done. No ordinance. Just a check in a box.
do you have a copy of that letter? So no actually ordinance, eg baptism, etc takes place - it's just authorisation given from first presidency to issue a letter?
This was back in the 80's. There was a letter - and it looked like your standard COB letter - that just basically stated that blessings had been restored. Do not know if that letter still exists though the relative is still alive.
I don't know if the church has changed their procedures and if its the same today. I can only 'witness' this particular example.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2011 09:48AM by kookoo4kokaubeam.
I don’t care to waste my time being angry over imaginary things, but I do spend time correcting deliberate misinformation that makes exmo’s look like wingnuts.