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Posted by: perceptual ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 12:08AM

This is a really harsh question, so I'm already assuming you're offended if you're religious in any way. But in the conversations I've had with really religious people, they end up admitting that if they found out it was all BS they would go out and do crazy things like rob and rape and pillage and kill or whatnot, or just basically not treat humans like humans, so it just makes me wonder: have they not evolved to the point where they understand what it means to treat a human badly and why they should treat someone well? It's the only reason I think they cling to a religion when they learn lies about it; they think God will punish them if they're bad, and that's the only reason they act good. Just wonderin

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Posted by: Elder Hugh Janus ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 12:19AM

a lot of mormons act a certain way or do good deeds because they think they have to and it's expected, not always because they want to.
also you can have god without religion, but humans are kind of hard wired to believe in something higher. also people want to save face and because of pride.

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Posted by: soju ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 12:35AM

If you asked me, as a TBM, what I would do if it was all false, I probably would have said, "rob, rape, pillage, murder, blah blah blah." Then I'd have said something about "without god there is no such thing as morality."

Turns out I was full of shit. I'm an atheist now, and I would not even dream of doing any of the above acts of brutality. Furthermore, I am now less racist, no longer homophobic, and all around a better, more moral, less judgmental person.

Because of this, I don't think that you can argue that religious people are "less evolved." I think that 99.99999999% of the time, when someone says "I'd be such a bad person if not GOD," they are just talking big and trying to make a point because they think their morality comes from god. In reality, they are moral for more rational reasons than "GodSaidSo," and that doesn't go away if they stop believing.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 12:46AM

They do seem to be somewhat devolved. Their constant kneeling has thickened their knees. Praying, beseeching and supplicating have stretched their arms so that their knuckles drag on stairs. Their mouths are pinched in a grimace of denial. They have a couple of books they paw through almost exclusively, as if they're interested in nothing else. Certain sounds and images offend them and set them to whining. When upset, they can be placated with bright orange soda and cupcakes.

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Posted by: madalice ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 03:01AM

BINGO!

Oh wait. They might like those little colored discs so much they try to eat them.

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Posted by: lostinva ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 01:47PM

I'm sort of in the third category. I'm not an atheist, but I tend not to embrace any organized religion. I don't think you have to go to the cold and brutal route of saying that since Mormonism is false that there is nothing at all, but I think that everyone should put Christianity or any other religion to the test not based on feelings or spurious evidence but on looking at both sides of the issue. I take the option that there are many possibilities, but that religion is a contrived form of control.

I think most people aren't trying hard enough to look for the truth no matter how it manifests itself. If there are infinite planets in the universe and time is infinite, the idea that we have one finite life where we clearly don't know what is going on that ends in death with eternal damnation or eternal bliss is absurd to me. Few people here are willing to consider that the origin of man in regard to alien civilizations, the possibility of reincarnation, the possibility of truth found in Eastern religious philosophy, the possibility of having contact with the dead, etc. Christianity (as well as other Abrahamic faiths) and all its offshoots seem to be designed to keep people in the dark. They are threatened by people discovering that there is truth beyond what they are told in this broken planet but also lies, and it's not all just the devil or a creator. Maybe nobody is who it seems to be. Perhaps its because when we die, it's not so cut-and-dried. If people have choices of good and evil in life, then maybe the same mindset exists in death. The "war in heaven" never really ended if the human mindset also exists in the spirit. If we can't stand somebody in life, are we going to suddenly like them when we die just because we're dead or will we just not care anymore? By conditioning you to a line of thinking, you are less inclined to be a threat of stirring things up there as well.

My problem with religion is that it does a very poor job proving itself to be worthy of acceptance. Almost always it starts with some guy claiming that he has seen a vision or had one-on-one contact with one or many gods thus we are supposed to blindly accept everything he says to be absolutely, completely true. Mormonism started that way and so did Islam. Just because it was written in a book before we had modern technology or were able to meet the guy doesn't mean he was special. If someone did the same thing that Joseph Smith, Abraham or Mohammad did today he would have to put on quite a show of supernatural powers (or be really good at getting the crowd stoned) to be able to gain the following that they did then. We're supposed to accept the Bible as true, when all we have to go on unreliable historical evidence and tons of blatant errors in a book that it supposed to be viewed as divine. A divine book IMHO would be unbelievably easy to understand and contain not a single error either in its original form or in translation. It would be absolutely provable and following its teachings would transform the world. Also, its evidence would be so easy to prove that everyone in the world would follow it and all other religions would collapse.

The Jesus story is very difficult to believe when looked at objectively, and the evidence to support it ever happening is very weak aside from the believers who use only the Bible as proof that it ever happened. All history is contrived since all men have something to gain from making the story fit their own agenda. Why would the Bible be any less so? In fact, religious books have caused people to do bad things, because all of them followed literally advocate what is generally viewed as evil (murder, rape, incest, slavery, etc). I don't want faith. I want to know where we REALLY came from, why we are here and what the point of all of this is. I want to know what "they" are hiding from us and why we are being punished in the first place. What is the point of a world where 7 billion people are being jerked around by a few with a lot more money and power because we're too stupid to stop them? Obviously there is no clear plan to "rescue" us or the world would only have one religion since there would be absolute proof that it was true without a shadow of doubt. If, according to Christian reasoning, Satan wanted us all saved and Jehovah wanted us to be in the dark and many of us lose it all (damnation) as some sort of spiritual population control, then who really is the good guy? The fact that we don't seem to be allowed to know all of this is a strong grounds for atheism, but it also is possible evidence to me by putting it in Mormon language that this IS "spirit prison". You're trapped in a body with people that you don't like not knowing why you're here or what the point is. There is pain, misery, cruelty and sadness abounding. Your day is great and one day someone you're close to dies or hurts you badly or you end up in cell.

The moral of all of this is that we should be accepting both but still reasoning with the religious and atheists since it is impossible to know who is really right. As Mormons, we were conditioned to refuse to accept outside-the-box thinking. We were not allowed to explore other possible theories, so the safe route was to accept another Christian faith or to become an atheist. What we do have, though, is evidence when something is clearly made up, was an elaborate lie or has nothing to support it other than hearsay such as much of Mormonism. We should use that as much as possible to fight the people that once controlled us and still control our loved ones.

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Posted by: Pithy ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 04:04PM

You wish it was half!

"...need to take it to an atheist forum..." I'm sorry, I missed where you got promoted to admin? Oh wait, you just haven't bothered to even read the rules here. You're free to start that thread you've never seen. Hmm, I wonder what would happen... Seen Bill Nye recently?

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Posted by: munchybotaz ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 07:06PM

I am, easily! So easily.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 07:28PM

Come on man, I love aranciata, San Pellegrino makes an aranciata from sanguinellas that is to die for.

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Posted by: notamormon ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:24PM

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They do seem to be somewhat devolved. Their
> constant kneeling has thickened their knees.
> Praying, beseeching and supplicating have
> stretched their arms so that their knuckles drag
> on stairs. Their mouths are pinched in a grimace
> of denial. They have a couple of books they paw
> through almost exclusively, as if they're
> interested in nothing else. Certain sounds and
> images offend them and set them to whining. When
> upset, they can be placated with bright orange
> soda and cupcakes.

Who are these people? Family?, friends?, acquaintances?

Generalize much?

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Posted by: immigrante ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 01:09AM

The whole country of Russia was atheist for over 70 years. According to this thread we were the most evolved people in the world. NOT. People started to go back to faith after the communist regime. If anyone thinks that religion is the only thing that keeps people from doing all sorts of horrible things, well, that person needs some evolving. Such a limited perception coming from years of mormon bubble. During the Great Patriotic War (locally known as World War II) the government allowed for churches to reopen (they'd been shut down or even demolished for years) and people go and pray for the soldiers, pray for the good outcomes of the war, for the war to end. It was allowed to lift people's spirits in the hardest trial of the country. This what faith does, it lifts you up, it makes you a better person (not in a sense that you don't go rob and kill and stuff), but the good comes from within and you are the first to benefit from it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 01:09AM by immigrante.

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Posted by: Levi ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 07:37AM

From the few posts of yours I've read, you appear to take things far too personally.

These are just posts, not personal attacks.

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Posted by: immigrante ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 02:16PM

Don't worry, Levi, I didn't spend all night crying over it. How do you know how personally I take it? If I strongly disagree with the opinion in this post, then I can express it, right? I don't think that religious people are less evolved.

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Posted by: seeker101 ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 09:12AM

Well said! Thank you for sharing.

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Posted by: neopornadvocate ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 02:05AM

You can't really be "more evolved"or "less evolved" Since evolution is simply the change in alleles in a population over time due to natural selection. If anything, religious people are being selected for because in general they have more kids.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 02:08AM

What an arrogant assumption!

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 07:17PM

Evolution is about allele frequency change over generations based upon environmental pressure on survival demands. It is clear that neither atheism nor theism has any claim to evolutionary advantage. People are atheists for rational reasons and irrational ones. People are theists for irrational reasons. That is he only divider. Leave evolution out of it. There are plenty of variables that are superfluous to in evolutionary analysis.


HH =)

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Posted by: anjelikaxm ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 10:11AM

Evolution is a term denoting change not the approach of an organism to an ideal state. Since religious people have existed in this current state for many millennia I would say that from our perspective they have evolved less.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 10:29AM

Juicy topic.

Atheism looks outside of itself,explores---explores anything, and has no reason not to embrace any new knowledge.

Religion defines, or attempts to define what is, and uses the past and unsubstantiated claims by men to do this as it looks at new knowledge suspiciously while fondling preconceived notions.

Atheism has natural morality that comes from an evolutionary based understanding of teamwork and interconnectedness to our fellow man.


Religion has a form of morality based on rules, repentance, judgments that may stop natural morality from coming through.

One is wishful thinking and the other is thinking wishfully.


Religion, especially Mormonism says if I am good I can go to heaven. This is based on nothing.

Atheism bases everything on fact. There is no carrot dangling from a stick. Knowledge and understanding are our heaven.

These are generalities. Individual results may vary, but I would need to see some facts before assuming that to be true.

For me personally, when I escaped Mormonism I was able to stop being so judgmental, arrogant, and being sure I was right. It was suddenly okay to read any book, discuss any topic, and consider the possibility of anything. The world offered so much more. I found I like doing things for others sometimes, just because I felt like it. I lost a fear of coffee and bare shoulders and wine. I also realized as I looked around that all religions have their unsubstantiated fears--their own versions of coffee, bare shoulders, and wine. We love to skewer the Mormon religion here. If its harder to see the same in others, perhaps its just because we don't want to.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 05:10PM

I reserve the right to satirize the belief in spirits.


P.S. Religious people are not less evolved. It's satire.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 07:27PM by donbagley.

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Posted by: Interested observer ( )
Date: February 18, 2014 07:24PM

"People are atheists for rational reasons and irrational ones. People are theists for irrational reasons."

That is an irrational statement

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 12:47PM

I will explain it to you but I will not be able to understand it for you.

Rational Atheist: There is insufucient evidence and lack of propositionally sound arguemtation to support a "god" belief. Therefore it is rational to be an Athiest.

Irrational Atheist: The idea of god(s) sucks and just seems dumb, therefore I don't believe.

Theist: There is no evidence or logically sound justification for belief, but I have faith and feel that its true. ... irrational.

HH =)

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Posted by: pithy ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:26PM

OMG, not the NDE thing again...

You really are new around here and you sure don't bother to UTFSE, do you... That's a rhetorical question...

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:34PM

If you have an out of body experience that is proof that you think you had an out of body experience. There is definite reason to believe that it was just a hallucination as well. Hard to prove. What it does not prove is the existence of a diety.

When I was young for a brief period nearly everyone in my family was having the exact same dream. My TBM parents took that as proof of God--specifically and conveniently their god. Looking back, I can only in all honesty say that what it proved is that for some reason we were all in sync when it came to a certain dream. It did not prove Jesus dies for us. It did not prove that anyone was a prophet. It only proved that we were sharing an experience.

There could be life after death. Deists have deep need to assign a god to that experience---for no apparent reason.

Sometimes what is, is, just what is.

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Posted by: BI ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:35PM

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that it's falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact which it endeavors to establish. ~ David Hume

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Posted by: QWE ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:42PM

I don't think it's because they're less evolved. I think the main reason they think that is because they've lived their whole life with religion, they can't even imagine how they'd live without it. They think they depend on it.

That's one of the reasons why it's so difficult for some people to leave the church. Their whole view on life has to be completely re-written from scratch. It's not an easy process, and something some people can't comprehend.

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Posted by: pithy ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:49PM

Spot on.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:50PM

QWE seems to be speaking in generalities and makes some excellent points. I see no reason to take it personally. His view is definitely worth considering rather than outright rejecting, in my opinion.

And one of the truest things you can say, is that when we don't comprehend something, we often don't realize that we don't comprehend it. . . .again, speaking in generalities.

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Posted by: notnewatthisanymore ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:52PM

You resent something they never said? Or do you believe that you would be Hitler reincarnated without God? Taking on messages directed at people who aren't you is a great way to free emotional pain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2014 01:52PM by notnewatthisanymore.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: February 19, 2014 01:53PM

Goodwin's law

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