I'm going back to church... It's not what you think, I really don't want to go to church, but I feel strongly I need to do this.

Let me explain...

I am dating someone in the church, but he has doubts just like me, or just like I did. After years of studying & thinking & reasoning, they are no longer doubts, & I know for a fact that the church is fraud.

My boyfriend has some real & serious doubts, & I have hope for him. He's the love of my life, & I am not going to give up right away just because he's Mormon. I mean, if someone like me who was just about as deep in the church as one could be, & then figure it out by herself that it's not true, I'd say it's possible for anyone to figure out.

He told me a few days ago that he went to his bishop in his singles ward, & he asked to be released from his calling as a temple prep class teacher. He said with someone with as many doubts as he has about the church & the temple, he shouldn't be teaching that class.

So he is currently position-less, & it was his request. Among his temple doubts, he also has doubts that JS did not see God & Jesus, & he has doubts about the Book of Mormon, too.

However, he still feels he needs to go to church every Sunday, as this will help him with the answers he is looking for. I started to feel a little hopeless, I felt he would never figure it out, but I found a renewed sense of hope. Perhaps I am an idealist, but I believe deeply that love does & will conquer all, & with a little bit of patience I can help him with his exit out of the church. It took me at least 3 years, I know this isn't something that is going to come suddenly.

So, with him insisting on still attending church, I worked out a compromise with him. If I went to church with on Sundays, we would discuss everything afterwards, & he promised he would listen to my arguments, & be open to what I have to say. I think this is fair & mature, don't you think?

If any of you have other sources, or other things I could share with my boyfriend, I would be ever so grateful!

Also, any advice as to how the best way to approach these topics & how to introduce him to things would be great, too. I need all the ideas I can get.

I don't believe in giving up on people, & I have complete confidence that he will realize & awaken one day - just like you & I.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 09:41PM by lulavina.

would love to see this plan work for you. The one terrific plus I think you have going for you is that both of you have agreed to communicate about what you are experiencing and thinking. Sounds like you have a good relationship.

Keep us posted please.

Yes, we are completely honest with each other. We are not ignoring the fact that the church could be a deal breaker in the relationship, especially if we get married & have children. We both want to marry each other, however, we realize we have to work through some things first, but we both believe it can work. I think he really could leave the church, I feel this from just the way he talks & how he isn't one to take BS. He has a good heart, & he wants what's right & true, even if that means that the church is not true. He just needs to find out for himself that it isn't true, he wants to believe me, but I don't even want him to believe anything I say just because I said it. I want him to take all the facts, & reason with them. I know he'll figure it out, I know he will. I will definitely keep everyone posted.

If you would like to compare Mormonism to the bible (christian teachings) I found these sites a good read
http://irr.org/
and http://www.mrm.org/

Since he has doubts about Joseph Smith vision and BoM. Go to mormonthink and study those items one at a time. Joseph Smith's multiple visions that no one (Brigham Young and John Taylor taught it was angels that appeared to JS versus God and JC) knew about. Also, the Smithsonian letter on the BoM sites was quite conclusive for me ------ per Smithsonian no known BoM sites on this planet yet but maybe on OZ.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

It is a very nice punch-list and even multigenerational lifetime members often don't know all of this.

Oh, that page is marvelous! I've been looking for an organized list/site that had everything listed & outlined so eloquently. I'm so silly, I can't believe I haven't found that page on this site yet, as I frequent RfM all the time. Thank you!

lulavina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, that page is marvelous! I've been looking for
> an organized list/site that had everything listed
> & outlined so eloquently. I'm so silly, I can't
> believe I haven't found that page on this site
> yet, as I frequent RfM all the time. Thank you!

The page at www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm is a copy of the original at http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

The original is updated frequently as dead links and new links are noticed; the version on exmormon.org is therefore sometimes obsolete, since it is updated only infrequently.

For another type of list, see "101 Reasonable Doubts About Mormonism" at http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

I will get Eric to do a new copy. Let me know when you update it and I will try to keep it updated. Nothing I like better than making work for The Boss ;).

It is such a nice list!!

Do any of you know if there is anything the church has a available on their website, or do they really keep all of it hidden? One of my boyfriend's worries is that people who hate the church so much publish false stories & things about the church. I need him to understand that the stories on "anti" websites, blogs, books, etc have legitimate sources & it's not made up to destroy the church.

I think showing him something that the church has available for any member to see would be a good way to start introducing him to other sources other than church approved websites & books.

I know on the church's family history site lists many of his wives, which proves the polygamy rumors in his time are, indeed, true.

Do you any of you know of anything else?

PS You are all so amazing! I am so grateful for your help & support.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 02:40AM by lulavina.

I wonder if the CES Letter by Jeremy Runnells would be useful? Here's a link to it. http://www.cesletter.com/

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation.
If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” President J. Reuben Clark

You might try the new lds.org essays confirming things like polygamy wasn't due to having more men than women. The first vision one has links to all the retellings - it's clear that there was one being, no two beings, no two beings and a bunch of angels... In Joseph's own words. They also include retellings by others which are consistent with the classic one we grew up with (#2) but its more official than MormonThink.

Be prepared that he may not leave, and think about whether a mixed faith marriage could work for you two. It has for me but neither if us is focused on One True Way...

Most of the sources are legitimate and FROM MORMON RECORDS. All the "anti" sites are doing is quoting from LDS historical records. Most of them can be verified through church sources or pro-Mormon sources. He just needs to dig and do research on his own. If he questions a source then he needs to do the leg work and dig around to verify it's accuracy, like going to the library, go to the church's website, going to http://www.fairmormon.org/.

Most of these things can be verified through LDS sources, but the problem is he will need to search for them because the church is not going to point out things that are not faith promoting. He can find most of these things through LDS sources but they will of course give their spin.

He needs to learn how to research and judge evidence objectively just like any objective historian would do instead of just believing whatever people tell him.

IMO, the best starting place in terms of expanding a Mormon's legitimate doubts about the LDS Church and religion is, ironically, the Mormon organization and its official materials. The following are links to relevant posts that I've done which should help you:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1065544,1066054#msg-1066054

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1043878,1044876#msg-1044876

"Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt": http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html?_r=0

ABC News (in SLC) report in Jan. 2012: "Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining": http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:daNxFN-6TAwJ:www.4utah.com/content/news/state/story/Number-of-faithful-mermen-rapidly-declining/d/story/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

"Special report - Mormonism besieged by the modern age": http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131

"Mormons tackling tough questions in their history": http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53408134-78/church-mormon-history-lds.html.csp

"Here’s archived info. on lds.org about JS’ 1832 First Vision story, which disagreed with his more spectacular 1838 FV [First Vision] tale": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38350/

"Mormon apostle Woodruff told church members that JS’ First Vision happened 'in the year 1827' and involved 'an angel of God flying'": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/37789/

"No visitations of John the Baptist or Peter, James & John to JS and Cowdery = no 'restored' priesthood authority": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/37624/

"The strange history of Mormon ‘truths’ about ‘cursed’ blacks, including Nelson Mandela": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38302/

Here's a partial list of several females, including other men's wives and teenage girls, that JS made his plural wives: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/939W-XHY

The comprehensive list is at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

"Sarah Pratt, wife of 19th-century Mormon apostle Orson P., provided a lot of info. about JS’ debauchery": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/37444/

"The Psychological Effects of Mormonism [-] How Mormonism Affects People's Self-Esteem": http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

An excellent online book (no cost) that details how much supposedly "restored" Christianity (Mormonism) has changed since 1830 is at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm

"Rethinking Mormonism": http://www.i4m.com/think/ (see the links on the left side of this webpage for further info.)

Steven Hassan, America's leading expert on cults, lists the LDS Church on his website as a thought-control organization: http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=140&title=Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints_%28LDS%29_-_Mormons

There are hundreds of informative, Mormonism-related posts via the individual links at http://exmormon.org/phorum/search.php?2,search=,author=The+1st+FreeAtLast,page=1,match_type=ALL,match_dates=0,match_forum=2,match_threads=0 and http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/search_results/ed6164f94ef308a8a3a0f66f47e0025b/

Good luck!

I just read the self esteem article. Thanks! Great article. Thanks for the link.

This is superb! I cannot even thank you all enough! The support on this board is measureless. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I love you, guys.

Let him find his own way, let him ask rather than you tell.
If he doesn't hold your non belief against you, don't hold his religious belief (evolving or otherwise) against him.

But you see, he has asked. He wants & needs answers. I am not trying to de-convert him, & he is not trying to re-convert me. We both just want to know what's true & what's right.

If your boyfriend does leave the church, he's going to have a lot of changes to go through. He's not only going to have to get the facts straight, but he's going to need to rebuild his identity and purpose for living. And he'll need to go through some deep emotional "deprogramming". In other words, church-trained emotional reactions such as guilt and fear, to normal human experiences (like drinking coffee or thinking for himself) will need to be worked out of his system. He may still need to re-evaluate ways of dealing with problems, such as ditching magical thinking. And he may need to learn how to deal with pushy people and how to set boundaries.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if he leaves, give it some time before you jump into a marriage. He's going to have to find his true self and work out a lot of stuff, like what he thinks about . . . EVERYTHING. After I left the church, that process took me years.

Ask him to take a brak from church. Ask him to take two consecutive weeks off to see how he feels. If he wants to go the 3rd week, go with him again.

I decided to take a vacation from church and it felt so good I never looked back. A vacation gives him a sense that it is temporary, so he is not leaving, just taking time out to reflect.

There is a good reason LDS, Inc. insists on weekly attendance. Once you realize you do not need it, you don't go back.

It sounds like your boyfriend is intellectually honest and doesn't just fake a belief in the church to validate himself with friends and family, or try to justify everything he has invested into it his whole life. It will probably only be a matter of time before he has a "testimony" that the church is bunk.

I would recommend looking at the lessons ahead of time and researching anything that seems off. All of the lesson manuals are available on the church website, so you can see exactly what will be discussed in SS/PH/RS the next week. Knowing ahead of time will give you a chance to identify any misinformation, figure out some thought-provoking questions to bring up in class, and even prepare your BF to look out for some of the parts that just don't add up.

There's one thing you didn't make clear in your original post, that of your boyfriends belief in God. I understand that he is having doubts about the LDS but does he doubt the existence of God? The reason I ask this is quite simple, if he has a belief in God but believes the LDS is less than honest concerning Him then perhaps you could suggest that on alternate weekends you attend other churches so as to see the other side of the coin as it were. I would hate to see you being slowly but surely drawn to the LDS because neither of you have heard any other viewpoints.
What worries me is that your attending church with him could have the opposite effect to that intended, it may be seen as an indicator (in his eyes) that the church could be right.

He believes in God, & although I do consider myself an agnostic, I too am trying to figure things out. He & I both want to find what's right together. We both have doubts, & right now while we are both so young (I am 21, he's 25) we both have a long way to go. That's why I feel so strongly that I need to keep working with him - we have all this time, it's not too late, it's never too late!

The thought of alternating each Sunday is a splendid idea, & one I thought about after my boyfriend & I came to an agreement. After I see how things go on Sunday, I am going to ask him if he would be willing to do this.

I will let you know how Sunday goes.

Is there a chance that he will discover that going to church does NOT give you the answers that you're looking for?

That is my hope. I know church is not going to show him the real truth. But baby steps, you know? I believe in him, & I know he will figure it out.