https://www.dropbox.com/s/uywdxih3rjqgwo2/HeberUT-SacMtgTalkOnTestimonyPreserving.pdf

I don't know who John Zenger is, but apparently he gave this talk in sacrament meeting last fall.

It is kind of the ultimate "wolf in sheep's clothing" talk.

He basically acknowledges problems with the church, says the prophet isn't always right, and neither are the apostles. He advises against thinking in binary terms about whether or not the church is true.

In fact, what he basically says is that it is ok to accept the church, warts and all, because it is "true enough."

This approach is far more dangerous than the "no middle ground" approach from ETB and GBH. It is really easy to say that the church isn't true when it has to meet any objective standard of truth. But this guy says that it doesn't really matter what mistakes the church or its leaders have made, it is true enough. Just take the church as it is.

Like every other statement from a church leader, this talk is designed to do 2 things, both of which are wrong:

1. Get people to pay money to the church.
2. Obfuscate the standard of truth.

My ancestors came across the plains in handcarts, having sacrificed immeasurably for their heart-felt beliefs. Now, we get the message that the church doesn't have to rise to the standard it sets for itself.

He wants us to give church leaders a break, and not give them such a high bar to clear.

I'm happy to give the church all the latitude it requires, as long as it doesn't pretend to be the world's channel to god. If it is just some people trying to do their best, then they can't tell members what to do under divine mandate.

So, it will always be that standard for me. If the church is going to be the restored gospel of JC, led by the lord himself, then let the church be judged by that standard. If, on the other hand, it is just some guys trying to be good, then that standard can be applied.

I do not think the GA 's are "Trying to be good", I think they are TRYING TO GET PEOPLE'S MONEY. I also think money, power and greed were the reasons the GA's got people to cross the plains on handcarts--they didn't give a rat's a$$ about the lives of those people, only money. And maybe any single women for wives,they craved sex too.

Single? Why set such a high standard?

I just don't get it. What's the point of believing the prophets and apostles, even Joseph Smith, if they're wrong just as often as anyone else? What then is your benchmark for determining if something is "true enough?" If the words of the prophet don't count in making that determination, then is your own personal opinion all that matters? Why not believe Richard Dawkins if he is just as prone to make mistakes or get things wrong? Why not ignore religion altogether and believe on your own, since that's essentially what you're doing anyway? This type of argument just seems to me like someone who is irrationally clinging to an organization that they don't want to let go, due to dependence, brainwashing, or some other form of manipulation. Seriously, they need to let it go.

That is a most distasteful and dangerous new "philosophy" of the church members.

So far that type of thinking has kept my wife stuck in the cult for many years now.

Inoculate? Please, I knew many of these problems as a young person growing up in the church. When I was old enough to start thinking for myself, I figured out a lot of things on my own. I didn't need some enemy of the church to point out inconsistencies and unanswered questions.

Phantom Shadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Inoculate? Please, I knew many of these problems
> as a young person growing up in the church. When
> I was old enough to start thinking for myself, I
> figured out a lot of things on my own. I didn't
> need some enemy of the church to point out
> inconsistencies and unanswered questions.

IMHO...Inconsistencies?.....Joey and the rest for the past have committed Jailable crimes. Every facet of Mormonism is false.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2014 10:55AM by Bite Me.

Have another shot of the Kool Aid, John Zenger.

You may want to become a politician; your warped view of reality will fit in just fine in DC...

"I don't care about facts, the church makes me feel good."

I'll accept that it's "true enough" if it were only " honest enough". At least then I could assess the level of "true" part for myself.

Add: I should have read it first. The "inoculation" is another word for cult "grooming". He is advocating that we just do a better job of indoctrinating the children so they can accept the crazy as normal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2014 05:57PM by crom.

But how can it possibly be "true enough" when nothing about it is true at all?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2014 11:24AM by zenmaster.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2014 11:24AM by zenmaster.

Critics of the church are supposedly hypocritical for casting stones at Smith and church leaders for not being perfect, while of course we critics arent perfect. We have unfair and unrealistic expectations, they imply. Uchtdorf said we arent patient.
But the problem, as you say, is whether or not the church is the right way. Whether its true. As a tbm I was always aware of the "foibles" of prophets and apostles. But if the church isnt true, theres no reason to stay, notwithstanding how nice the brethren might be. Doesnt matter.

Right...exactly!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2014 11:22AM by zenmaster.

Could they be any more plain when they come out and say that for decades or more, they controlled the information, but they no longer do. And now that they don't, people are learning the information they've been hiding and are ceasing to believe and are leaving in droves.

What to do; what to do? Well, first, twist and spin. Next, inoculate. Third, lower the standard from absolutely true, to good enough.

Pathetic!

I can actually see the point.

A lot of modern liberal Christian sects are outgrowths of the same mind-set. Toss all the contextual crap out -- like stoning gay men, not eating shellfish, selling everything and following Jesus, etc. -- and focus on the positivity, using an existing organization. Think of it as evolutionary in its nature.

When Luther wanted to reform Catholicism, he ended up evolving it just a little bit -- into Lutheranism. He used the same Christian foundation, just built differently.

I can see that as what Zenger is interesting in doing. The church has a great engine -- 80,000 young people selling its message, billions in cash, and so on -- to accomplish change. Hence the 'true enough.' I think what Zenger and Dehlin and many of of the others are wanting to do is get the church away from its fundamentalist, literalist, roots, and into something more malleable and adjustable to society's needs. The church could be a powerful way to accomplish change -- but it needs to get away from the literalism first.

Tom is the Mormon Martin Luther in many ways. The questions he asked answers about and the open letters from the European members was much like what Luther did. Mormons hate when you point that out.

Zenger was doing this way back in the olden days when he was my bishop...we were always taught the controversial stuff way back in seminary. Ah, that could have been the reason I stuck around so long :)

Zenmaster, in Norcal? I'm from that ward too. Interesting.
We probably know each other...

If the prophets and apostles think they should be given a pass for their human frailties they need to abolish church courts, probation, and excommunication for members who also succumb to their human frailties.

Sounds to me like a guy telling people to get out of the church in the only way he can.

"We have been encouraged to teach only faith promoting information. That clearly has value and is effective at conveying the believing point of view. I fear we got by with that when information was harder to access. In this day of the internet, virtually all information is within everyone’s reach, instantly and free of charge. I believe it calls
for a new practice of introducing these potentially faith damaging issues gradually"

"I think it is far better that they hear such truths from me or some other respected leader or teacher and not from an antagonistic preacher or a disaffected former member. Again, it is easier to cope with these issues when taken in small doses, one at a time"

Trying to slowly boil frogs. Give it to them in tiny pieces so they don't see the overwhelming evidence.

I don't see how this approach is sustainable in the long term. If the fundamental claims of Mormonism aren't true, then what does it even mean to be Mormon? What specifically, would actually be the core beliefs?

What would missionaries actually teach and what would motivate them to go out into the world if the certainty of self-deception was absent, not having been indoctrinated since birth?

If the prophets seers and revelators and an ounce of inspiration they could reveal whatever new doctrines they needed for new core beliefs and retired the old ones along the way.

But we've wandered 160 years in the wilderness of no inspiration.

Each of us has to face the matter- either the church is true or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and Kingdom of God or it is nothing.

Or after failing this test can we go for option three? The church has enough truthiness to get by your radar?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2014 11:56PM by crom.

I think this guy receives a paycheck from the cult.

Pablum.

NOt only does Mormonism have no foundation, neither do the monolithic Judaism and Christianity that it bases itself on.

None of the Biblical characters ever existed and none of the events described actually took place. Jesus himself was invented several decades after his supposed life/death/life.

This makes me wanna scream! The inoculation idea just gives members just enough reason to not expect truth from the church they belong to and to keep them from digging into the church's false teachings and beliefs. Lowers the bar and expectation for integrity. Pathetic! I keep wondering if maybe before one of the GAs passes on, he would have a shining moment of integrity and come clean about all the lying to keep the money flowing in. I know they are "church-broke" and all but is it too much to ask that one of them would be struck with a moment of integrity? I would hate to go to my death with this amount of deception on my conscience.