http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/57738/The-Book-of-Abraham-The-larger-issue.html


This statement is utterly indefensible: the Mormon church is a "house of cards." If the church were to admit that the Book of Abraham had "fallen," it would be an admission that Joseph Smith were a false prophet ... and there goes the entire Restoration! (How can he NOT see the problem with his assertion?)

Dr. John Gee (Egyptologist at Brigham Young University) also stated:

"'The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ.'

"To illustrate, he said that of all the scriptural citations in general conference since 1942, the Book of Abraham has been cited less than 1 percent of the time."

What Dr. Gee apparently failed to mention is that the Book of Abraham contains exactly TWELVE pages of text, while the entire standard works of the Mormon church total just under 2,500 pages of text. So, the Book of Abraham comprises less than ONE-HALF of one percent of the total page count in Mormon scripture; it would appear then, that General Authorities since 1942 have given as much or MORE weight to the Book of Abraham as to the rest of the Mormon canon.

And here are a couple of BOLDLY CONFIDENT (sarcasm alert) assertions made by Gee:

"'I think [the Book of Abraham] can be defended.'"

And,

"[T]hough God knows everything, "'we do not and cannot ....'"

So this is the state of Mormon apologetics? I guess you kind of have to feel sorry for the guy! But, really, WOW! ... just WOW!




_________________________

Also, see The Priceless fraud of the Book of Abraham by JoD3:360 at:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,113465,113465#msg-113465



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 06:00PM by Fetal Deity.

"'The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ.'

That is true. However, it IS central to LDS brand Mormonism...which is also not central to the Gospel of Christ, restored or otherwise.

JoD3:360 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "'The Book of Abraham is not central to the
> restored gospel of Christ.'
>
> That is true. However, it IS central to LDS brand
> Mormonism...which is also not central to the
> Gospel of Christ, restored or otherwise.

Good point.

Though it may not be essential to the restored gospel of Christ, or anything else for that matter, it ABSOLUTELY proves J.S. to be a liar, deceiver, and fraud. It's really pretty simple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 06:30PM by think4u.

It is obvious, at least I think. This is one of the reasons I'm here. This whole church just strikes me as such a blatant fraud, I'm interested how it has been able to grow as large as it has.

1) JS falsly claimed he translated ancient scripture. We know it was nothing of the sort and this brings his translation skills and the whole BoM into question.
2) blacks were discriminated against for many years directly from one of the BoA's suspect teachings

Is that enough to cause concern Mr Gee? Idiot.

Sounds like a "stand or fall" issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 08:00PM by robertb.

Look for the Suits to eventually drop it from the PoGP.

I hope they do that, as it might raise a few eyebrows of the faithful. But probably not, TBM'S are so good at ignoring whatever makes them a bit uncomfortable.

stand or fall on the Book of Abraham, I mean. Because as others have pointed out, it proves whether Joseph Smith could translate ancient texts OR (as the apologists are now claiming) he was able to receive it as revelation from God. If he couldn't do either of those things, Mormons are in big, big trouble.

Also, it's been years since I read it but, don't some pretty significant Mormon teachings come from the Book of Abraham? No matter how much it's quoted? And though they may not quote it in Gen Conf, I know last time I went to Sunday School months ago, the teacher took many scripture quotes from it.

I just rolled my eyes and read my Kindle.

It's about time they dropped the demonstrable fraud that is the BoA - even though Nibley's life works on the BoA were recently published.

But I doubt for a moment that it will cause many TBMs to discard their faith. The Prophet will just have another convenient revelation along the lines of:

"The world has moved on - the BoA's teaching is no longer relevant. I know this to be true because whilst I was sitting in the Holy of Holies God told me so."

And that will be enough for most sheep.

They just do it and the members are expected to pretend they did not notice. The members are also expected to pretend that they never believed or heard of those teachings, and definitely not speak of those teachings.

You are right on - that is exactly how it works, and somehow members just seem to get that, that they are expected to pretend they don't notice.

It's really weird how it never occurs to them to their own brains, never. Well, actually, they are told NOT to think, that all that has been done for them. So, I guess that explains it. But I still find it very strange.

Sure didn't seem to act like the temple ordnance changes happened, though my mother still doesn't believe the temple rituals are Masonic at all.

A fraud is a fraud, and the BoA is a whopper.

The temple ceremony does rely heavily on the Book of Abraham. It provided scriptural support for what Smith was doing. Where does renouncing the Book of Abraham and the PoGP leave the temple?

That's not really true. Masonic lodges all have Holy of Holies too.

It really does boggle the mind how Joseph Smith managed to deceive so many people so utterly.

http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-1?lang=eng

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vignette1.jpg

It seems to prove that LDS canonized scripture has nothing to do with reality.

This mopologist is such a fucking lamebrain.

think4u said:

"Though it may not be essential to the restored gospel of Christ, or anything else for that matter, it ABSOLUTELY proves J.S. to be a liar, deceiver, and fraud. It's really pretty simple."

Exactly.

And if he can't be trusted to have translated the BoA correctly, then that calls into question everything he ever said he translated, including the BoM, which IS supposed to be the cornerstone of their Gospel.

Yes, everything does fall down and crash because of that one obvious and proven fraud. It certainly did for me anyway.

The Book of Abraham is a prime example of the Mormon Church expecting us to pretend what is so isn't so. It's a crazy-making religion.

Gee's arguments are so stupid...

Gee tries to brush away everything except for his six "important" things that "need to be defended". Here's #6:

' ..and the Book of Mormon is true, an authentic record of God's interactions with actual ancient people.

"Now, we may be called upon to defend smaller points than these, but if these six things are not true, there is no point in the rest," Brother Gee said. '

Based on his own list of "important things" - he loses BIG on # 6! And - according to Gee - "there is no point in the rest." So, there is no point to the mormon church, so give it up already.

And his comment that "The Book of Abraham is not central to the restored gospel of Christ" is totally laughable. If it's not that important, then drop it, as well as every concept, idea, and teaching based on it. When these are totally removed from mormonism, see what remains.

Do mormons and apologists really believe and follow these twisted reasonings?

The majority of Mormons will never question the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, so I doubt it will be stricken from the LDS canon.

Even if they do hear something troubling regarding the discrepancies between Smith's so-called translation and the actual papyri, they will easily be herded back in by a church authoritarian declaring that, "Many non-Mormon Egyptologists are intrigued by Joseph Smith's translation." (This was actually spoken from the pulpit by Dr. C.W. Griggs, resident LDS archaeologist and bullshit artist) No corroborating evidence needed.

For the record, I myself am intrigued by much of what J.S. did, what his mental processes were, what the hell he was thinking, but it certainly does not mean I believe for one damn minute he was some inspired man-prophet talking to God Almighty himself.

Funny argument. One wonders if he would have made the same argument if the translation of the funerary text had CONFIRMED JS's inspiration. Would he then have been willing to say "Don't get too excited folks. This doesn't prove anything."

It would be a cold day in hell.

I'm sure many non-Mormon Egyptologists *are*, er, 'intrigued' by Joseph Smith's, er, 'translation.'

If you are in some arcane academic discipline and a fraud in your field ends up part of an entire religion that influenced the history of your country, what is not to be intrigued about?

Prof. Griggs merely chose his words very carefully. But, no lie.

I attended a Fireside featuring Griggs a few months back entitled, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection." He told the congregation that his mentor, noted Egyptologist Klaus Baer, had praised Joseph Smith for his insight into ancient Egyptian language and culture. A quick google search showed that Professor Baer wrote a scathing denunciation of Smith in 1968 after he translated the BoA papyri.

He also made incredibly tenuous connections between Mormonism and Egyptian religious beliefs by both stretching facts are completely fabricating evidence. He kept asserting that the temple rites of both peoples were too similar to ignore. I don't remember anything about a soul-devouring croc/hippo/lion/cheetah beast from my many trips to the LDS temple! But I received my endowment well after 1990, so what do I know? It could have just been edited out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 09:18PM by magunga.

The Greek Psalter is the other "text" JS pretended to translate that he got totally wrong.

And let's all remember the Kinderhook Plates debacle.

For how many has the BoA brought down the church? almost every exmormon that I have meet cite the BoA fraud as a significant reason for losing their faith in the church . . . sorry typing with one child in my arms and another screaming at the top of his lungs.

That is the one thing which told me that it was unequivocally not true. Everything did come down like a house of cards after that. I guess because the evidence proves that Smith was capable of outright fraud. He couldn't have seen God, and then had the nerve to lie like that.

The first 4 lessons in GD class last year were 100% based on The Book of Abraham. The subject for the year was supposed to be the Old Testament. I thought the OT started with Genesis. No, it starts with the BofA.

There are many uniquely LDS doctrines which are based on the BofA-plurality of Gods, pre-existence, the war in heaven, the purpose of life. So, the church DOES stand or fall on the BofA, more so than the BofM.

It may be a "small" thing to some (no pun intended) but the phallus on facsimile 2, figure 7 was removed and then put back...one of my favorite and most blatant "black and white" examples of information control/manipulation...

It must have been a "big" enough concern for somebody to have it removed...why they put it back can be conjectured...I've got my opinion.

Don't know when it was actually removed, or for how long, but in my 1968 version it is clearly missing, in my 1989 version it is clearly there.

Very clear example of one of many controlling, manipulative tinkerings by the powers that be...