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Posted by: ness ( )
Date: February 07, 2014 11:39PM

Well, this is a new TBM explanation; There is no solid evidence that JS married other men's wives or children under 18 years old. Comment from FB Mormon think page:



"I'd accept the kind of proof we'd use to prove anyone was married to someone else. Kids that have both parent's name on their birth certificate, a wedding certificate, both people involved in the marriage talking about being married to each other, even the spouse being listed on the other one's gravestone would be better than "Well my grandmother said on her deathbed that she was married to Joseph Smith."
The church websites are largely run and contributed to by volunteers. There are tons of mistakes that are made on the websites, they are far from perfect, but they represent the best information that we have available. When you look at Joseph Smith there's not much documentation listed for his wives because there's not much documentation out there. As such we might have a pretty good reason to believe he was married to someone but the proof is often not to be found on the church websites and seems to be absent anywhere else either for many of the women that anti-mormons claim Joseph was married to.

Don't get upset at me for asking for solid proof on something. And while you're at it don't go around thinking that there's proof for things when there's not. Joseph was far from perfect but I have yet to see any proof that he was involved in a polyandrous marriage or married to anyone under the age of 18 (altho that last one is a social norm, not anything else. We're lucky that women are able to wait until they are in their late teens or 20s before getting married but that's hardly how the world operated for 99% of its history.)"




Heard this one before? Or is this TBM just totally wrapped up in his delusions? From what I gather, most TBMs accept that JS married other mens wives and young girls.
Asking for "solid proof" (what else does he want? JS to appear to him personally saying he banged other mens wives?) while the whole church is based on a boy who claimed he saw God. There is no SOLID proof of JS claims, no proof of the BOM, no proof of the church's claims, and that's good enough for a TBM because they "know it's true."

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Posted by: trog ( )
Date: February 07, 2014 11:48PM

Apply the same standards of evidence to the claim the Book of Mormon is a divinely-assisted translation of ancient sacred texts and Joseph Smith's sex life doesn't seem important any more.

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: February 07, 2014 11:51PM

Even my TBM husband agrees that the evidence is pretty solid that Joseph Smith was involved in polygamous and polyandrous relationships, so this is a new one for me.

Just respond by saying that you prayed and fasted about it and received a witness that Joseph Smith was indeed involved in polygamy and polyandry. That's all the proof you need.

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Posted by: msp ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:02AM

"Just respond by saying that you prayed and fasted about it and received a witness that Joseph Smith was indeed involved in polygamy and polyandry. That's all the proof you need."

This would probably appeal to the tbm's "sensibility" more than real evidence anyways. What a convenient way to prove something. Nice idea!

By the way, what IS "solid proof"? Journals, witness accounts, word of mouth...even church records? It seems like this tbm will reject any tangible evidence since it's theoretically possible that said evidence was fabricated by some bitter anti-mormon. Because everyone's out to persecute the one true church.
There is solid evidence out there, but automatically denying the basis of that evidence is simply just refusing to think. Sounds very tbm to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2014 12:02AM by msp.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:01AM

...but there's a ton of contemporary documentation for it, including the personal journals and/or legal testimonies of many women who were plural married to Joseph Smith and/or had sex with him, or spurned his advances. Several of those women were the leading ladies of the church late into the 19th century, so it doesn't make sense that they would lie about it. This TBM needs to study the stories of women such as Mary Rollins Lightner, Sarah Ann Whitney, Zina Huntington Jacobs, and Helen Mar Kimball.

Then there are other records such as the journal of William Clayton, Joseph Smith's personal secretary, and the testimony of church leaders who opposed polygamy such as John C. Bennett, William Law, Austin Cowles, etc. And of course, the Mormon apologetic website FAIR carries article which admit to Smith's polyandrous relationships.

The TBM you quoted needs to understand that there are no public records of plural marriages or childbirths because polygamy was illegal and thus practiced in secret. Church leaders denied that they even practiced polygamy until 1852---eight years after Smith's death. So you're not gonna find any tombstones inscribed "Here lies Jane Doe, plural wife of Joseph Smith." If he seriously wants to know the facts, he can start here:

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excerpt-in-sacred-loneliness/

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:13AM

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

As to the TBM's statement: "I have yet to see any proof that he was involved in a polyandrous marriage or married to anyone under the age of 18", this website documents most, if not all, of the cases. For example, Sarah Ann Whitney was a "plural wife" of Joseph Smith, but entered into a legal "sham" marriage with Joseph Kingsbury: "In April of the following year, Sarah Ann publicly married Joseph C. Kingsbury. Kingsbury said of this marriage: “…according to President Joseph Smith[s] Council & others [I] agread to Stand by Sarah Ann Whitney as Supposed to be her husband & had a pretended marriage for the purpose of Bringing about the purposes of God in these last days...”.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/16-SarahAnnWhitney.htm

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Posted by: Facing Tao ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:43AM

Sadly many TBMs acknowledge JS's polyandry and teenager wives, but think nothing of it, because "those were spiritual marriages", and because "back in those days it wasn't so unusual for that young women to get married". First, it doesn't seem those were just "spiritual marriages", and second, as we know, the average marriage age was 20+. But tell that to the TBMs sipping on TSCC Kool-Aid..

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Posted by: hayduke ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:37AM

Looks like that post got a response, and from BYU publications. Teehee!

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Posted by: hayduke ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:38AM

Following these arguments are very telling. Argue argue argue, then once someone provides a resource, silence.

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Posted by: ness ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:42AM

And those sources are all well and good, but the problem lies when he says he'd only accept birth certificates, wedding, certificates, ect as proof.


So, the only "acceptable proof" he would accept would be unobtainable since polygamy was secretly practiced by JS and illegal.

*Church Lady invoked here*

Well isn't that convenient?

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Posted by: keshengjie ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:51AM

What difference does it make if J.S. didn't practice polygamy? Later leaders did even though the BoM forbids it.

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Posted by: hayduke ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:45AM

He's a lost cause, someone that would stay TBM even if the 15 admitted it was a lie.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 12:58AM

See that shelf there in front of the mirrored wall? That's where I keep my glass kitties. We have the proclamation mounted over the TV.

No, I haven't heard of any talk against the prophet. We've been told to stand fast. You should stop asking us for help.

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 01:06AM

Spiritual marriages? - what do they think the marriages in Colorado City are? Only one of the wives there have a marriage (if she's lucky NOT lucky in my opinion) but anyway the rest of the "wives" don't have any legal papers at all, because IT IS ILLEGAL. Warren Jeffs is real good at things ILLEGAL.
Besides they can't bleed the beast (rip off the gov't) if they admit who the father of their brats is.

Women on this board: I ask you - how would you like to go to the welfare office and apply for welfare for 9 - 15 brats and say that you don't know who the father is? (insert music from Psycho here) Does that scream SLUT SLUT SLUT? Humiliating?
They can't say who the father is because the low life penis would have to pay child support then.

I wish they'd go down there and do DNA on the fathers and kids and make the slime balls pay child support for their trillion brats. Where is Maury Povich when you need him? Of course that may not work there since a any given person may be their own mother, grandmother, sister etc. I'd rather be boiled in oil than be a genealogist in Colorado City.

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Posted by: Get Real ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 01:06AM

How many other men in Nauvoo at that time were also married to numerous wives and had children by them? Those men brought these families to Salt Lake City and everyone knew the marriages originated back east.

Brigham Young and John Taylor were just two good examples.

If all of these other men were "fully married" to their polygamist wives and had children by them in Nauvoo, why would Joseph Smith have been the exception?

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 01:08AM

The LDS Church's FamilySearch.org website contains lists of JS' wives: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/995N-B25 and https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9S9S-PD2

JS' first polygamous spouse (their marriage was illegal in Ohio) was Fanny Alger. The LDS Church's online genealogical info. about their marital union is at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 01:09AM

Of course, it wasn't a marriage. It was a secret, immoral,
illegal relationship that Joseph Smith used his position as an
authority figure to coerce them into. So your TBM friend is
right, but in a way that makes it worse than expected from a TBM
viewpoint.

Joseph Smith was not a HUSBAND, he was a sexual predator. And
for that the evidence is copious and irrefutable.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: February 08, 2014 02:14AM

Has this person read "In Sacred Loneliness", by Todd Compton? He presents a lot of evidences of Smith's many marriages, possibly even enough to "prove" things to this person.

But maybe not...

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