Elder Jeffrey R. Holland was the visiting General Authority at a stake conference in Las Vegas this weekend. Here is a summary. It is my observation that Holland is a sincere believer. You decide...

At the Saturday evening session, he told the story of his father getting a visit from the Bishop, the Elders Quorum President, and the Sunday School President. Elder Holland was ten years old, and his father was a smoker, coffee drinker, and occasional beer drinker. He told the story with great detail about the awkwardness of having the man at the door (his father) holding a cigarette and putting it out in his cup of coffee, and after several moments of awkward conversation, the bishop finally asked if he would teach a Sunday School class. Elder Holland said he was in the room, and his father's response was "but I'm a smoker" as if that was some kind of new information, and the bishop responded a little too quickly "that is your problem, not ours".

He said his father started looking around the room as if trying to find a way out of this situation, and when he noticed his son (elder Holland), he realized that they were asking if he would teach "his son's" Sunday school class. Elder Holland said that the three men who were there could not have known it, but they had just gotten his father in his Achilles' tendon, his soft spot, because he was a father that would do anything for his children. His father asked "when would I start?" and there was a very loud crash in the kitchen, where his wife had been listening and was stunned by such a response. The Sunday school president said, "well that is what we came to find out from you "when can you start?" meaning "when can you give up these habits and start teaching?" His father reached into his shirt pocket and took out the pack of Camel cigarettes and threw them in the fireplace, and said "I will see you on Sunday. After that, his father was very active and committed to the church...

Elder Holland made the following point: Statistically, the chances are minuscule that he would have ever been active in the church with a father that never went and that had such habits. If those three men hadn't come to the house and asked his father to teach, he very likely would have been such a statistic. The message was that we should never write off the inactive members, that we never know what the impact of our efforts might be, and that everything Elder Holland has dedicated his life to, he owes to those three men who came to the door that day. He mentioned that when he gets to heaven, before he looks up Peter, James, and John, or Nephi, Moroni, or Joseph Smith, he will go looking for those three men and fall at their feet and thank them for having the courage to approach his father.

On Sunday, Elder Holland spoke about the original apostles, who were uneducated, ordinary men who only had three years to prepare for their ministry (Elder Holland will celebrate his twentieth year as an apostle), and how they didn't really understand many of the lesson Christ taught in parables and didn't believe Christ's predictions of his own death. When Christ was crucified, they all scattered and were in confusion. Soon after, they decided to come to the temple, where they encountered a crippled man who had spent forty years on the steps of the temple begging for alms. As they approached the man, Peter stopped and took his hand and told the man "gold and silver have I none, but such as I have, I give unto thee; in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, rise up and walk." The man then stood up, and leapt around and was rejoicing.

The men in power at the time, who had just helped put Jesus to death, saw that the man was creating a commotion and that those who witnessed the healing were all converted en-masse. The leaders (Sadducees, Pharisees, and scribes) asked the man to stop making such a commotion, but the man refused. Elder Holland then made the point (very loudly and forcefully) "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE EVIDENCE!" He said that as much as the jewish leaders wanted to make the whole Jesus thing go away, there was this famous crippled man dancing around, and they could not argue with the evidence. Then Holland made the point of how the Book of Mormon exists; it is five hundred and thirty two pages of evidence. You can attempt to explain it away, to wish it didn't exist, but there it is, and you can't argue with the evidence...

Elder Holland then told the story of the blind man that Jesus healed by mixing clay with spit and rubbing it on the man's eyes. When the blind man gained his sight, he wouldn't shut up, so once again the leaders went to the parents of the man and tried to get them to keep their son silent. They then went to the man and asked him to stop proclaiming jesus as a miracle worker. The man said, "I only know that I was blind, and now I can see", and there was no way for the jewish leaders to explain that away. You can't argue with the evidence.

As much as people today would like to make the church go away, they cannot argue with the fact that the church blesses people's lives, that there is no other church who proclaims salvation for all humanity, even dead people, or that families can be sealed for eternity. The youth of the church are exceptional in their respective societies, and this is all part of the visible reality of what the church offers. You can't argue with the evidence.

Then Holland made his final point: "You Can't Kill it, Not This Time." As much as the early jewish leaders thought they could silence the movement by killing Jesus, they realized it wasn't dead. The evidence continued to arise and was undeniable. But even more important, no matter who you killed today, (and they speak freely of such possibilities), there is no way that the apostolic keys will ever be removed again from the earth. It doesn't matter if apostles fall from the faith, if they are killed, or whatever. You can't kill it (the church). It will continue on until the second coming.

Then Holland bore his witness (again, very forcefully and emotionally): "I have read a few books, have travelled a few miles, and I would NEVER dedicate my life to a trick, a fraud, a false idea, so give me some credit here! (reminded me of the Sweeney interview). He has dedicated his entire life to promoting and proclaiming these truths and he would never do that if it weren't true. He has seen miracles and lives changed, and the church will continue to do miracles in the lives of all who embrace it.

Good. Camels are ghetto.

So is the dodo.

Jeff is either a despicable liar, or one of the biggest dodos to have ever lived. The BoM can be disproven in a dozen different ways. It's 532 pages of clear evidence that he's dedicated his life to a fraud. I ran into him once in public. If I had known then what I know now, I would have been seriously tempted to knock him out.

If he has such an unshakeable testimony, then explain it. Joe wasn't ashamed to say that he had seen God, Jesus multiple times, angels, etc... There was nothing too sacred that it couldn't be mentioned. If you don't have THAT kind of testimony, then just come out and say it...you're just like every other member...it makes you feel good and you think it helps people. There's nothing more to it.

You seem to be drinking the Kool-Aid.

God blesses people - - - often time IN SPITE OF their being victimized by false doctrine.

The LDS leaders, in effect, are holding hundreds of thousands of sincere people hostage to the damning belief of fraudulent teaching, false Gods, and cult-like devotion to a man-made fantasyland of blind obedience.

These leaders are extremely casual with the truth. Selective with the truth. Many of them are down-right liars....all to continue the charade of keeping masses of people towing the line for LDS, incorporated.

A perfect example of how they use the love members have for their families to exploit them and ensure to ensure an apostate's silence.

Sounds like Holland's still trying to convince himself....

Holland is either a very truly sincere man, or he's very much skilled in appaering a sincere man. There's no way to know what's truly in a man's heart from listening to a conference talk. Unfortunately for Holland, if we let the evidence speak for itself rather than speaking for the evidence, the outcome is not that shiny and faith promoting for the church.

Dodo says "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE EVIDENCE!" that is funny since there is no evidence for the things in the book of Mormon and irrefutable evidence showing that it was all a complete sham from a con man. What a Dodo

Thanks for the report; it was very interesting. Did he really say the early Jewish leaders killed Jesus to kill the early church? Sigh. Continuing the anti-Semitic tradition.

You could make the same speech and talk about all the evidence there is for the church's falsity. Fanny Alger, Lamanites, P of GP, etc, you can't argue with the evidence. The church is false.

Also I found it interesting he said he has seen miracles and lives changed. So have most people. But he's an apostle and hasn't seen Jesus Christ. You can't argue with the evidence.

so that he could retell the tale I heard him tell in his home in St George a few years back.

Arza was good buddies with Frank Holland who had retired from the church building dept.

Frank seemed bitter about his experience there with the graft and cronyism rampant throughout the LDS construction program. IIRC, that is why he died in SG and not in SLC.

Old guy was obviously close to being an exmo hanging out with such as Arza Evans [Keystone of Mormonism author].

Too bad the loss of pension and family prestige held him prisoner in his white underwear to the end.

Anyone else heard of such anti-LDS sentiments coming from Jeffery's dear old dad?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2014 01:13PM by Shummy.

"...they cannot argue with the fact that the church blesses people's lives, that there is no other church who proclaims salvation for all humanity, even dead people, or that families can be sealed for eternity. The youth of the church are exceptional in their respective societies, and this is all part of the visible reality of what the church offers. You can't argue with the evidence."

So he claims that the church is true because (a) it helps people and (b) the church "proclaims" these doctrines (which aren't even unique to ldsc). The former isn't evidence at all and is, at most, a non-representative side-effect. tscc is "good" as far as the people in it are "good". It's the doctrinal aspect of this "religion" that is so detrimental to members.
If you want to give real evidence, why not talk about the first vision, or JS's polygamous, polyandrous, and pedophilic relationships?
Way to go Jeff. Your talk is one big emotional appeal that entirely avoids the truth -- just the way tscc like it, right?

If you really listen to the story, nothing remarkable really happened. Three guys showed up and asked him to teach a class, so what? Sounds to me like the usual tactics of obfuscation and emotional manipulation. Did he offer any logical explanations for the serious historical, doctrinal, or scientific problems that are plaguing the Morg? Did he cite any specific evidence? The answer is no to both questions.

Instead, it was: here is a tear jerking story in which I reframed reality by calling an ordinary occurrence a miracle with some fake statistics. Then have a Bible story to tie my previous story to make it seem even more remarkable. Then I will forcibly yell my claims into the microphone without any peer reviewed evidence whatsoever. Rent ye Repent ye, for the Second Coming will really happen even though Joey's previous second coming prophecies proved to be false.

I need to resign once and for all; they really have nothing and they can't let the lie die, not on their watch.

"I have read a few books, have travelled a few miles, and I would NEVER dedicate my life to a trick, a fraud, a false idea, so give me some credit here!"

Yeah, that will convince me. Not. The tone here is completely off balance for someone who truly believes that evidence of the truth of the BoM will carry the day. Instead we have truth by personal affirmation, which is not reliable.

The man doth protest way too much.

I give him credit for repetition, and not for displaying much intellectual discernment.

Holland doesn't say "I'm not a deceived idgit", a species thriving in great numbers around Temple Square.


Holland says "I'm not a dodo", an allusion to a species which became extinct roughly 350 years ago.

He couldn't be a dodo if he wanted to be. As for an idgit ...

Holland always comes across as someone who tries too hard. I think he's trying really hard to convince himself it's true.

"You can't argue with the evidence."

Right, now open the books. Let's see the complete financials.

(crickets)

That's what I thought.

Bite Me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You can't argue with the evidence."
>
> Right, now open the books. Let's see the complete
> financials.
>
> (crickets)
>
> That's what I thought.


Ha! Now THAT'S a book they all gotta crawl over or under but even Jeff can't get around it.

Good one

"Then Holland made his final point: "You Can't Kill it, Not This Time." As much as the early jewish leaders thought they could silence the movement by killing Jesus, they realized it wasn't dead. The evidence continued to arise and was undeniable. But even more important, no matter who you killed today, (and they speak freely of such possibilities), there is no way that the apostolic keys will ever be removed again from the earth. It doesn't matter if apostles fall from the faith, if they are killed, or whatever. You can't kill it (the church). It will continue on until the second coming."


You can't kill it because ol' Joe was so much better at church building than that Jesus fellow or chumps like Peter and Paul. According to the Mormons those guys couldn't keep things together for more than one generation, but look at Smith's church going on 180+ years! Praise to the man!

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." - Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

+1

D'oh! D'oh!

I see this as a cautionary tale for inactives. If you fall for cheap Mormon schemes like Elder Holland's father did, then you will end up with a dumb@ss, dodo bird like Elder Holland for a son - someone who can't tell truth from lies and devotes his life to spreading those lies.

See how you can destroy your child's life, future, character, conscience and ability to think critically if you allow Mormons to visit and don't keep your guard up when it comes to their ridiculous reactivations stunts? Beware inactives - be smart don't start. Don't end up with a dodo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2014 01:35PM by CA girl.

thanks for the report

it's interesting to see what's on their minds right now - especially considering the recent essays...

"they had just gotten his father in his Achilles' tendon, his soft spot, because he was a father that would do anything for his children"

Heartsell TM - that's really all they have

"Elder Holland then made the point (very loudly and forcefully) "YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE EVIDENCE!"

because he's not a dodo he knows very well that there is no evidence - it's not like nobody else in the history of ever has written a book...

"You Can't Kill it, Not This Time."

overly dramatic displays of confidence = fear

""I have read a few books, have travelled a few miles, and I would NEVER dedicate my life to a trick, a fraud, a false idea, so give me some credit here! (reminded me of the Sweeney interview). He has dedicated his entire life to promoting and proclaiming these truths and he would never do that if it weren't true."

this is what I imagine a cornered animal would sound like (if it could talk) - the BBC interview showed him to be fully aware of the implications of what he is involved in

sucks to be him

The church is soooo on the defensive. If it is true, then why all the talk defending that it is true? If it is true, you wouldn't care. You would go on doing your thing instead of trying to convince others of it. Why is the church so consumed with increasing its membership vs. focusing on Christ? All that is talked about is how somebody had some amazing conversation convincing somebody to join or come back to the church and then they lived happily ever after. BS!!!

"If it is true, you wouldn't care"

I can't remember where I read this but... in modern organized religion there is so much talk about truth and faith and doubt

but in folk religions there is none of that - because those people aren't constantly trying to brainwash themselves and each other into belief - they don't need to because the things they do as part of their beliefs are ACTUALLY TRUE to them

the way you know that they really believe that a sacrificed goat will bring rain (or whatever) is that they just get together and sacrifice the goat - they don't make speeches about how true the sacrifice is or talk about needing to believe in the sacrifice or about how bad it is to doubt it

those kinds of supernatural beliefs are taken as facts by those people - and it shows in the way they 'practice' their religion

You wouldn't be having monthly meetings with members telling each other and themselves over and over "I know it's true! I know it's true!"

Also testimonies wouldn't be such delicate and fragile things in need of constant protection.

Can you say cult?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNHM7I1WJIk

Not very convincing to the unfaithful.

> On Sunday, Elder Holland spoke about the original
> apostles, who were uneducated, ordinary men who
> only had three years to prepare for their ministry
> (Elder Holland will celebrate his twentieth year
> as an apostle), and how they didn't really
> understand many of the lesson Christ taught in
> parables and didn't believe Christ's predictions
> of his own death. When Christ was crucified, they
> all scattered and were in confusion. Soon after,
> they decided to come to the temple, where they
> encountered a crippled man who had spent forty
> years on the steps of the temple begging for alms.

1. Holland is wrong about several things.
2. As to the apostles not understanding the parables, where it was unclear to the general populace, Christ explained the parable to the disciples and so in both the parables whose meanings were self-evident and those that required further explanation, were understood.
3. The understanding of the crucifixion was after the fact as the disciples recalled what Christ had said and was so intended.
4. The apostles not only were not scattered after his death, as they heard the Lord giving them instruction for forty days afterwards, acted together to choose another apostle, and received the Holy Spirit as a group!
5. The experience of Peter was well subsequent to Pentecost and after many people had been baptized into the church.
6. Only later persecution separated the apostles and Paul, for example, met them in council years later.
7. Holland is definitely learned in scriptures.

When the missionaries first came to my door some 25 years ago, they told us stories like the one Holland shares about his father. I was impressed by the power of the p-hood visits, the love of the members for each other and the instant change in the lives of peope and kids. Of course, they made the father or mothers look like the drunk/drug-addict slackers and the 'visitors' like angels sent from heaven, but at the end it was a happy ending. The missionaries made it sound that this type of miracle happened often in the lds church. I foolishly believed them.

In all the years I stayed and served in the church I did not experience one single incident of instant change of heart followed by the remarkable story of the children becoming a SP, apostle or prophet. Hey, I never even experience a re-activated member that would rise to the top even after repeated visits, reactivation efforts or carefully drafted and executed plans to reactivate them. Yes, some went on missions, some received a lot of attention and maybe one or two stayed but it took the whole ward, lots of dinner invitations, missionaries visits and general harrassment to get them to come to church. My conclusion is that these stories are not true, or are greatly exagerated.

As for Holland, the words he chooses make me think that he's trying to convince himself. Like the child who will say "I did not eat the cookies mom" when mom has not even noticed the cookies were eaten.

I am reminded of a famous quote, sometimes attributed to Sam Goldwyn:

"Sincerity is the key to success. If you can fake that, you've got it made."

Holland just approved the essay where they admit Book of Mormon people were minor players in the Americas.

This is what he said in 1976.


“Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.)
Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfilment of God’s special purposes.
With care and selectivity, the Lord began almost at once to repeople the promised land. The Jaredites came first, with stories of the great flood fresh in their memories and the Lord’s solemn declaration ringing in their ears: “Whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fullness of his wrath should come upon them.” (Ether 2:8.)
A Promised Land - Jeffrey R. Holland, The Ensign, June 1976


When you have yelled "I know the Book of Mormon is true" thousands of times in front of hundreds of thousands of people there is no going back. He can't go back.

Yes they CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE (pretend) EVIDENCE.

But they sure argue against real evidence every day.