An investigator who came to church for the first time after studying for a few weeks, asked in investigators class why the Priest had to say the Sacrament prayer twice. It was explained that the prayer had to be word perfect because it was a revealed prayer and it was sacred.

He pointed out that the Book of Mormon says "wine" in the prayer as given by Christ and that the D&C used "wine" in that revealed prayer also.

And then he told us that if we could demand a young man to say it perfectly, but change the words AND use water, then we could not be trusted with other sacred things, and then he walked out never to return.

We all just kinda sat there for a little while.

I love it when people have the guts to say what they think at the Mormon church. It must be quite shocking to people who don't dare say anything remotely thoughtful or different.

That investigator deserves a high five!

obviously this person was too smart to be a moron.

polygamy, cult, and utah get mentioned.

Krakauer's book "Under the Banner of Heaven" has been read by millions and people want nothing to do with Mormanism.

Good point!!

Was this the original way to bless the sacrament:

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this **wine** to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."

*edit* NVM You said wine.. I should read before posting...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2011 09:40PM by mike.

This is from d&c 27 2-4

2For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall aeat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my bglory—cremembering unto the Father my dbody which was laid down for you, and my eblood which was shed for the fremission of your sins.

3Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase awine neither strong drink of your enemies;

4Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made anew among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

It is a double standard. I asked why it was ok that jesus and co had wine but not for us.

I was told it's "possible" that it's because we can get addicted to alcohol and why it's not allowed by the lard err lord.

The 12 apostles had wine, though..

My mother, the Great Rationalizer, responds to the "Jesus had wine, why not us" arguments by claiming that wine in those days was actually just grape juice that hadn't even fermented.

I swallowed it in those days, though now I know better because part of the reason we had any alcohol way back when was because people needed something to drink and water was largely untrustworthy and alcohol preserved and sanitized well.

No, even in the days of Jesus, wine was wine, not grape juice.

Next time she makes that argument I'll point this out, and even point out that humans have drank alcohol for thousands upon thousands of years before Jesus allegedly existed, not that I personally believe he did.

I want to engage in loud laughter whenever I hear momos and fundies say wine was just grape juice back in ancient times. Yeast cells live on the skins of grapes, before refridgeration and pastuerization there was no way to prevent fermentation in grape juice.

The reason this is problem is because it doesn't matter if you flub a word in the sacrament prayer. It's the intent that matters, which is why it would be ok to substitute "water" for "wine." I do understand this investigator's issue though and he is absolutely correct.

The real issue is that power hungry priestood leaders created this "the sacrament prayer must be spoken perfectly" because they wanted attention from the pulpit by correcting others and demonstrating their superiority and priestood authority. Its a dominance issue and totally unnecessary. Not all priestood leaders are asshats and some are reasonable, but there's always one or two on a power trip or totally caught up in their holiness and it gives them great pleasure to "correct" someone flubbing the sacrament prayer. I always felt it diminished the man making the corrections or vigorously shaking his head no that the prayer wasn't "good enough." Ridiculous.

I guess in this case it served as a faith demoting experience.

It's the worst when there's a semi-mentally challenged kid is ordered to give the prayer. These kids are pretty smart about the world around them.

They know the judgment the world places on them, they know they have to say the prayer perfectly, and that paired with their slight trouble with reading, it makes me want to hug the poor bloke and let him cry.

If they make a kid do that prayer they should let him do it once and give him the benefit of just doing it. I agree. Ass-hats showing off their dominance. :/

It's awfully nice to have the Priest say it perfectly, but is it really the letter of the Law, or the spirit that matters?

If the person catches himself and starts over, that is one thing but when he is made to do it a third time the spirit of the ordinance is lost. Rebverence is replaced with embarrassment for the prayersayer and for the congregation.

Never to be seen again - that always stuck with me

looking back - that was his lucky Day

I went to the investigator's SS class while I was on my way out. There is a couple that attends that class, converts of maybe 5 years, approaching retirement age. I'm not sure why they joined, but they are very well read in the Bible. They always have unique and interesting comments to make in class. They are not afraid to think and say things outside of the mormon box, because they simply weren't raised Mormon. One time, the husband said that JS didn't see God and Jesus in the first vision, it was Mormon and Moroni, the last father/son pair in the BofM(This is my beloved son, hear him) I got a kick out of that, but he was totally serious.

and cast the evil spirit out of him.

He was full o' pride, and lookin' for an excuse to sin.

One of the things that comes up with Mo v. "other religion" is the evil of rote prayer and repetition...the other religions, being "bad" for it, yet there is plenty of repetition within Mormonism. My ex one day wanted to demonstrate that other religions are wrong by producing a bible scripture about "out loud" prayer and "praying in closets," which I think came from Mark? And I had to point out that I don't exactly see Mormons praying in closets all the time and pray publicly quite often, even over dinner. This is one of those (??) moments when the Mormons pass blame on other faiths while doing the same thing themselves...but they have the Holy Ghost so it's totally cool if they do it? I have to say, the investigator was spot on. :)