...They don't believe that Jesus lived. They don't believe in Jesus. They believe that Jesus is this person called Christ, the same person as "God". That is not the same as believing in Jesus. If Jesus really did live, then that is a deeply disgraceful denial of Jesus' life as a person. If Jesus did live, I would try to understand him as he was, & not some fairy story about him being The Lord, or Christ, & a physical manifestation of "God".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2014 04:51PM by Tristan.

Stick to what you know.

I've had this belief since I was a kid. So I am sticking to what I know!

Oh really? Except, this is what I've heard from "Christians" my entire life! None of them said any different!

Ridiculously so.

I was an active liberal, mainstream (UCC) Christian until I was 47. I know Christianity in its many forms pretty well. You dont, obviously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2014 05:09PM by serena.

Stick to what you know.

Also: I think it's safe to say you are way off the mark on this one.

"If Jesus did live, I would try to understand him as he was, & not some fairy story about him being The Lord, or Christ, & a physical manifestation of "God"."

Your observation makes sense to me.

I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO STATE THESE ISSUES. OF COURSE YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO STATE I'M WRONG. BUT TO TELL ME TO SHUT UP IS HIGHLY ABUSIVE. I CAN SEE THAT ANY DISAGREEMENT TO THE "CHRISTIAN" STATUS QUO ISN'T WELCOME. I HAD BEEN WANTING TO SAY THESE THINGS FOR A LONG TIME. THEY ARE AN OBSERVATION & A BELIEF ABOUT HOW "CHRISTIANS" REALLY ARE.

(I'm going to stay, but I'm really angry right now.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2014 05:40PM by Tristan.

Hey, you made sense to me.

You could just as well state that you believe Monson is really an alien and that Obama was born in Kenya. Okee dokee.

I am an atheist now, but am quite well versed in Christianity, as are many on this board. I have no vested interests in defending the faith, but do support reality and truth.

I live in a highly diverse big city with practically every single stripe of Christian. I have talked about Christian beliefs with many different kinds of Christians for most of my life. They all believed that God & Christ were the same person.

Yep - it's the Trinity and is the doctrine that all mainstream Christianity follows. I'm not sure why some people are saying that Christians don't say that Jesus was God. It's clearly doctrine. The only Christian group I can think of that don't believe this are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Christ was a title, the Greek version of Messiah, i.e. Jesus the Christ. I think its safe to say that most Christians are very invested in who this person was in real life. Of course the way they go about it and the answers they come up with vary considerably, but they absolutely do "believe in" Jesus the god/ man, described as "fully man and fully god."

It may seem strange and confusing, but your initial statement had me scratching my head. It seems like many Mormons have odd, incorrect ideas about what most rank-and-file Christians believe.

No it isn't confusing to me. They believe that God came down to earth as a Man. To me that means that they don't think Jesus existed. They believe God came down to earth as a man & lived. That is not the same as believing that Jesus lived.

& yes I know Christ is a title.

My observations were always my own. I stopped believing in TSCC as a very young kid. I've been an atheistic-agnostic since I was 8 3/4. These observations came from what came out of the mouths of Christians themselves, not from any nonsense I was taught in TSCC.

They believe in Jesus the man and Jesus the representation of God, the same person. It is very different from what Mormons are taught to believe.

& Mormons don't believe that Jesus lived either. They believe in some fairy angel (flesh & bone angel lol) named Jesus who is the son of their crappy Mormon God, who lives on or near Kolob (depending on if they believe that Kolob is a star or a planet).

In the UK, all children used to have compulsory RE studies which consisted entirely of bible studies from a C of E point of view. Even if the kids families weren't Christian.

They always played down the Trinity and used to focus on Jesus being the son of god, teaching nice things and everyone should be lovely to each other blah blah. I was really shocked as an adult when I discovered the Trinity and that Christians worshipped a mangod. A bit of milk before meat in the Anglican (episcopal) Church maybe?

I'm not following. Can you maybe try to word this in a way that makes sense?

Well, they certainly don't follow his supposed teachings. That's for sure. When Jesus allegedly said "Love one another" Christians thought he said "Hate everyone who is different than you".

THAT I can get on board with...

My best friend from HS is married to her Episcopal Dean partner, also female, btw, and they are about as liberal as your gonna find. My dad too, and many others. Its not quite fair to paint all Christians with the same brush. I had enough of trying to twist my brain into a pretzel, trying to excuse all the awful, hateful, horrible parts of the bible, but the Christianity I grew up with and practiced was only based on the bible, and seemingly just parts of it. I was ok with that toa point, but finally couldnt deal with the core stuff anymore, all the supernatural, cannibalistic, silly stuff.

You said: "I've had this belief since I was a kid. So I am sticking to what I know!"

Interesting, since a common theme on this board is that beliefs are different than knowledge.

What I meant was that I know what I believe.

Yeah... I can see where you're coming from. The way "Jesus" of Christendom is portrayed is frequently a far cry from the historical Jesus. It seems to me you could make the analogy that believing in Santa is the same as believing in St. Nicholas. They would not, of course, recognize each other on the street but it is very easy to sew yards of fantasy around a stitch of truth and forget that they are not the same thing.

specific man named Yeshua. He may have been an amalgamation of various rabbinical teachers who ran afoul of the Romans. Who know? All we really have is the writings in the bible, which can be taken with a large grain of salt. This Jesus the Christ was a religious character, in a religious bunch of texts of largely unknown origin, not a historical book. Theres actually little than can be known or studied about any one actual man.

& I know that as well. That's why I said in my OP, "**If** Jesus did live". I don't know if he did, or if he's an amalgamation, or just a made up character.

Tristan, I think you are on the right track, so what if some people don't like the tone or the direction of the message.


Jesus if he existed would have existed for two reasons. One to die and two to provide an example of the proper way to live a good life. Let's start with the "atonement" or Jesus existed to atone for the sins of humanity. The sacrifice of Christ's human life served as a ransom for many. Stop and consider how much of a sacrifice it is to give up the frailty of humanity in exchange for immortal omnipotence. Ask yourself how much you would suffer if you knew that you would never suffer again?

As for the example, putting aside the problems with primary sourcing, is Jesus truly the highest standard? Especially considering that he is of the same nature as the god of the Old Testament.

Do you believe in Jesus, the real Jesus?

Take a guess what they'll say. Then take it up with them.

If you want to buy a Ford ask a Ford dealer if their car is the best one. That is the only way to get the right answer.

I think youre confusing Christians with Mormons. Christians love to talk about and expound upon what they believe, and most will be honest too, even if their grasp on the inner workings of the faith aren't quite up to scratch. The only thing I've noticed most Christians lying about in regard to what they believe is their clear discomfort with telling you what they believe where non believers will go after they die, at least the polite ones; they hem and haw and dont want to tell you you're going to go to h e double toothpicks.

Then there are those who dont believe in hell either...