My mom is telling me there is nothing wrong with just celebrating Jesus' birthday even if you don't believe he rose from the dead.

I've paid little attention to the "did Jesus exist" discussions here. I am, however, now a bit curious.

Can anyone share the best evidence that Jesus existed?

If it means I get to drink eggnog, I'll celebrate anybody's b-day in december

Monty Python's "The Life of Brian".

Everyone in America wants to have a party from November until at least the first of January. It's a great way to get through the dreary winter. Call it whatever you want.

When you're an adult you get to make up your own traditions. One of ours is having Bailey's in our coffee every weekend morning from November through February. We may extend that into March this year.

We also have REAL champagne, and probably drink too much at get togethers. We also eat waaay too much food.

If others need to have a Holiday in order to have traditions, so be it. We also happen to like the idea of giving and getting presents. I usually have a sparkely Christmas tree because I think they're beautiful. However, I will forgo that tradition if I'm lucky enough to be in a tropical part of the world during that time of year.

I guess it comes down to do whatever makes you happy. If other people want to call it Jesus's birthday, so what. Go with the good parts. Where I live, winter is dreary. Glitter, presents, food, and parties make it fun.

As Stephen Hawking says, "the meaning of life is what we choose it to be ... this makes us the lords of creation."

You can celebrate it if you want to ...

in other words its about you, not about him (Jesus).

Enjoy life and have fun!

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My mom is telling me there is nothing wrong with
> just celebrating Jesus' birthday even if you don't
> believe he rose from the dead.
>
> I've paid little attention to the "did Jesus
> exist" discussions here. I am, however, now a bit
> curious.
>
> Can anyone share the best evidence that Jesus
> existed?

Best evidence is that very early on there were obviously
competing sects of Jesus followers who did not all believe
or preach the same things. That's very slender "evidence,"
but it counts for something, I'd say.

Once a traveler gets past Europe and into the Middle East
and South Asia, personal birthdays don't count for much.
Important people may have their birthdays remembered, but
the common folk just ignore their own.

I see nothing in the preserved probable teachings of Jesus
where he would advise (or welcome) a birthday celebration.
And -- even if such a celebration was advisable -- when
should it occur? Nobody knows.

So, go ahead and celebrate the winter solstice -- the birth
of a new solar year and the fact that our star did not go
permanently dark on the shortest day of the year.

Seems like a good time to decorate a tree -- hang up some
stockings by the fireplace -- and eat gingerbread cookies.
I suspect Jesus would approve...

UD

"Best evidence is that very early on there were obviously
competing sects of Jesus followers who did not all believe
or preach the same things."

Intriguing. I'll have to see if I can dig up some material that points out some of the differences between the early sects. I'm curious if some of the competitors who lost out had a more compelling version of events.

Regarding winter solstice, I'm having a hard time getting fired up about the shortest day of the year, but the tree, cookies and music do the trick. I've always loved the season.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Best evidence is that very early on there were
> obviously
> competing sects of Jesus followers who did not all
> believe
> or preach the same things."
>
> Intriguing. I'll have to see if I can dig up some
> material that points out some of the differences
> between the early sects. I'm curious if some of
> the competitors who lost out had a more compelling
> version of events.
>
> Regarding winter solstice, I'm having a hard time
> getting fired up about the shortest day of the
> year, but the tree, cookies and music do the
> trick. I've always loved the season.

My thoughts are -- that we start with what we've got,
when trying to trace history backwards. We have no
Jesus grave, or definitive Jesus proof, so we start
with evidence for the Jesus followers and try to trace
that backwards as far into the past as possible.

Had Jesus been an utter hoax, fabricated by the Romans,
to fool the Jews, I would not expect to encounter more
and more rival sects as we moderns trace evidence back
to the original Roman fabrication -- I'd expect to find
just the opposite; that is, an origin point with a
single religious sect and a single kerygma -- a single
mindset -- a single worldview.

I find some satisfaction in seeing the days beginning
to grow longer again. Had I been an ignorant, superstitious
farmer, living in the distant past, that "miracle" would
have been cause for great celebration, no doubt.

UD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2013 01:32PM by dalebroadhurst.

I'm firmly in the "Who gives a floating space fuck?" whether Jesus actually existed; he's not my savior, and virtually every story surrounding him is either heavily doctored, borrowed from other stories or made up after the fact. When you strip away the obvious mythological elements of his story there's enough information to reconstruct a believable 1st-century apocalyptic preacher, but to me the actuality of his existence is unimportant.

It seems to me that your mother is trying to trick you into worshiping her god, if only for one day out of the year. This is completely unnecessary and absurd. Our good man Yeshua bar Yusef ain't the reason we're noshing and cavorting this season; Hell, we'd come up with some other excuse to party if the myth of his birth hadn't cannibalized the Winter Bacchanal as we cannibalize his flesh and blood. Nom Nom Nom.

That being said, I have my Nativity set out with the rest of the X-mas decorations, though I've livened that somber scene up with a few festive party hats I constructed out of felt. On Christmas I'll pour a little bit of wine out on the ground for the baby Jesus and then resume my normal heathen celebrations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2013 11:15PM by En Sabah Nur.

actually, those who hated him left ton of proof he existed.

Produce your documentation with accompanying names and dates, please. Bald assertions are not a good way of proving your point.

I'm balding but my ass is getting hairier. So what want to know is this; what about hairy asses, can I prove my point that way?

Well, you see, there is a consensus of biblical scholars, meaning people who get paid to read the bible, that think he is real. Never mind most of these are religious guys, who only study the bible, because they believe it is the Lord's word. It must be true. Just as we know Mohamed must have really seen Angels, because the majority of Quran scholars believe this, not because they are Muslim, but because they have proof. It both cases, it is the warm and good feelings that both scholars get reading their favorite book, that counts as the proof.

I watched a documentary years ago. they man showed stuff written about Christ by the people who hated him...he was very political. I thought it was interesting.

most ancient historians agree he existed....but disagree what happened during his life. his crucifixion and baptism seemed to be widely agreed upon.

(historocity of Jesus, wikipedia)

Your problem is you keep on relying on really, really, really old historians or as you term it ancient historians. Give the younger historians a shot, It might just surprise you to find out why a bunch of old farts think a baptism is plausible even though they have zero evidence.

I meant historians who study ancient times. :)

I know, I was just feeling like a smart ass last night.

"Those who hated him left ton of proof he existed."

This is is what I was objecting to, not whether the legend of Jesus was based on a real person.

There are NO extant contemporaneous accounts of Jesus' life. No documentation of him from his lifetime exists, nothing written by him, his followers or the folks who hated him. All our records of Jesus were put down decades after his life and death. I think the idea that Jesus was a wholly fictional character is a plausible idea, even if I happen to believe in a historical Jesus.

This really is a very silly argument. Jesus' impact in life was pretty goddamned insignificant, but his cult and the legends they built around him have had a profound influence on history.

On a side note, my wife and I came up with a new naughty-time role-playing scenario last night: she's a virgin betrothed to an aging carpenter, and I'm a horny desert deity looking for a young woman to inseminate. We hired a strung-out homeless man to sit in the corner and pretend to be a cuckolded Joseph. Super hot.

For me, the only thing Christmas has to do with the Christ myth is the name. It's a day to focus on loved ones, and family, and to anonymously do nice things for people I love. I have a tree, lots of lights and corny decorations. I even listen to Christmas music, but the best ones are the ones about flying Reindeer, magical snowmen, or sitting by the fire with someone you love. Jesus, at best, is kind of like the story about the four legged mammal with the red glowing nose. I don't really believe it, but it doesn't mean that it can't be a fun story for others.

What do you mean by the statement "Jesus existed?"

Do you mean the descriptions in the Gospels are all true and
accurate?

Do you mean there was a guy name Jesus and his followers made up
a lot of stories about him?

Or somewhere in between. The question needs to be clarified
before you start looking for answers.

I like the long hair and the beard. For some reason, that lends credibility. So, I'm looking for a Jesus with long hair and a beard. Beyond that, I'd like to hear that this guy suggested to people to love their neighbor as themselves.

Can we pin that guy down somewhere?

I'm also very curious if his "message", and I'm thinking of the love part of his message, was radical at the time and location. Anything to suggest it was?

You can celebrate the ideals Jesus stood for, or at least the basics of Christianity.

Which are actually great concepts about treating others.

It would be nice if someone started a true chirstian religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2013 01:04AM by nonsequiter.

The Basics of Christianity:

Jesus is god but not that god, another god, but the same god. Oh and he let himself get killed so he could come back after three, I mean one day and save all of mankind. Not really all of mankind, just the ones that know he is god, but not that god, and accept him as god, but not that god.

Oh I forgot, don't be a dick.

Well yes, that's certainly one way to look at it.

That's my mom's suggestion and what she claims to do herself. That does lead me to wonder if his message was somewhat radical for the time and place.

The other concern I have with using Jesus as a method to celebrate those ideals is that the poor guy has been co-opted by some hard-core conservative types who seem hell bent on wringing every drop of compassion and kindness right out of the guy.

Make a birthday cake and in frosting write the word Jesus but do not put any candles in the cake.

Sing happy birthday to Jesus and tell the kids to blow our the candles.

The perplexed children will state that there are no candles to blow out. To which you answer, 'Exactly, there are no candles because Jesus never existed. But that doesn't mean we don't get to celebrate myths. And I'm certain the cake will still taste good.'

http://hovergirl.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/jesus-cake.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2013 04:13AM by transylvania.

Mankind was holding celebrations around the winter solstice for thousands of years before Christ (whether he existed or not) was born. There was Mithras, and the Romans had Saturnalia.

The early Christian church co-opted the holiday. Most of the traditions remained the same, but they convinced the masses that they were celebrating Jesus's birth. Lights and candles, evergreens, etc. are symbols of life's continuity, and the return of light after the shortest day of the year.

Every year you hear of people complaining when they hear "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." They want to put Christ back in Christmas. I wish someone would start a counter protest and encourage people to remove Christ from the solstice.

Bottom line, humanity had been celebrating this time of year for thousands of years before Christianity. Call it whatever you want and enjoy the traditions - most of them date back before Christianity anyway.

"I wish someone would start a counter protest and encourage people to remove Christ from the solstice."

This is too funny. I don't know if it will get much traction, but I'll bet you could get your name in the newspaper. Give it a shot. :)

If it bothers you, tell your mother no. If not, go for it.

Christmas is a cultural celebration of cheer and winter fun.

Birthdays are similar. Some people celebrate on their exact birth date and others do it when it's convenient.

I only care about Jesus around Christmas time because holiday songs and manger scenes are part of the beauty and charm of the season.

Read Bart Ehrman's "Did.Jesus Exist?"

Just enjoy the season. What's wrong with peace on earth, good will towards men?

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Oh there's no question he existed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suetonius_on_Christ

One summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Accepted_historic_facts

However the significance of that, religions differ on.

Judaism sees no particular significance.

Islam sees him as a prophet.

Mormonism sees him as a man who later became God.

Hinduism has no opinion.

Christianity sees him as God.

You're free to believe any of that or none at all. Or you can have your own custom belief.

Debate over, there is no question. All of you who still question, get over it.

In all seriousness, do you understand the argument at all?

I like the tree, the decorations, the goodies, and especially the presents. Don't care about the rest. It's a goddamn holiday. Enjoy it. Christmas comes but once a year.