I have had numerous discussions with TBM's where they argue that the church has to many members to be considered a cult, or the current doctrine is not cult-like, etc...

So when I wonder did the church go from being a cult to not being a cult? I'm thinking 1960s maybe? But I have no data to back this up, just ramblings of a dodo I guess.

...whether the members agree or not. It's just got too many culty characteristics!

But of course "cult" is not anything official... it's a subjective opinion.

a cult is defined by it's behavior, not by what it believes.

Basically, a cult engages in manipulative and controlling practices that limit the ability of it's members to control their own lives or think for themselves.

Basically, a cult is an abusive and controlling religion.

http://packham.n4m.org/cult.htm

Richard Packham addressed this methodically, helped me think through it.

Interesting - the "cult" nomenclature really is sticking in the craw of the cult. TBM relative, in usual siege form, noted in exasperation "and now they're calling us a cult!"

Indeed.

I haven't read any reports by cult experts that exclude a group from being a cult based on numbers.

This is just another one of the tactics. They like to point out the erroneous thinking that all cults are small little isolated groups. "We can't be a cult because we have too many members."
Never mind that they fit every other criteria on the list as noted so thoroughly by R. Packham.

The early Mormon church resembled a lot of popular cults that we see now or in our recent history. When the Mormons settled, Mormonism started looking more like it does today, which does not resemble what most people and experts consider cults.

Most likely you could draw a line during that time between the two words, but the term is so fluid it'd be hard to make a good distinction.

In short, there is no "official" designation either way.

I think the "it's a cult", "it's not a cult" argument is too simplistic. There is a cult spectrum that all organizations fall on.

If you define the spectrum as more cult-like as you go from left to right, I think it's safe to say that Mormonism falls left of, say, the FLDS church, or Scientology, or even the Jehova's Witnesses. But with even a cursory study of the characteristics of a classic "cult", there is NO question in my mind that the LDS church falls somewhere on the spectrum.

This is by far the best description of this I've seen on the board.

snb, I am surprised at you!

The poster says all organizations fall somewhere along the "cult spectrum."

Then s/he says the LDS religion falls somewhere along the cult spectrum...

and you consider this the best description of a cult you've seen on this board?

Tsk tsk.


Anagrammy

I think I was prone to a little bit of hyperbole. Maybe it isn't the best ever, but I like it when we move the conversation away from black and white thinking. A spectrum is a really good way of looking at it.

I'll take my lashes and submit an apology.

If it looks like a cult, walks like a cult, talks like a cult, then IT'S A CULT!!!

Depends on the definition of a cult. There are many definitions of cult and the term is used differently in different fields. The original and most basic definition of the word simply means "worship" or "a group of people who worship a deity." Its been expanded over the years to refer to a "deviant" type of group. Evangelical Christians often use the term to refer to religious groups, churches, or religions who's doctrines or practices which diverge from the "traditional" Christianity.

Others use the term to mean any group or organization, religious or not, which applies a manipulative, psychological system of extreme control over its members. This is the definition I use when referring to cults. A cult could be any size or age. It doesn't have to have "weird" beliefs or even be a religion. For example I consider the North Korean government a cult. Definitely Scientology.

And I definitely consider LDS Inc a cult, but I don't consider it to be the same DEGREE as the above. They employ VERY manipulative, psychological tactics to recruit, retain and control its members which most other "mainstream" churches do NOT employ. Here's a good checklist of this type of cult. http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm. I think LDS Inc. hits most of these points.

All religions, organizations or institutions fall on the cult spectrum SOMEWHERE and some fall on the extreme end. Jim Jones, Scientology, Al Quaeda, North Korea, Charles Manson, are on the extreme end. Most mainstream churches are on the other end. Mormonism is somewhere in the middle, but definitely on the side of the spectrum where I would classify them as a cult.

Only outsiders would say a cult is one.

Good point.

If you live in "Zion", wear "Magic Knickers" and consume "Funeral Potatoes" ... you just might qualify as a cult member.

It never stopped being a cult. The morg is getting more cultish than ever.

IMO they will remain a cult until they quit selling you undies and telling you what you can have to drink. Also when they quit putting a price tag on eternal life and quit asking your kids about their sexual habits.

And drop the tokens.

Whether it is or isn't a cult is all about what meaning individuals pour into the term, and that varies enormously. And frankly it's unimportant. It's like asking if a particular brand of potato chips is salty. Relative to what? Some people will say Lays are, others will say they aren't.

What's important is the behaviors an organization exhibits. And in this case, TSCC is abusive, controlling, manipulative, disingenuous, and fraudulent. That's good (bad) enough for me.

WWII. George Albert Smith and Mormon US Senate politics found favor as reliable allies in political battles, starting in the twenties. Smith was first non-polygamist Church leader and by then the whitewashing was well underway.

By the way, I understand the question, but it is a cult and it is still small. Three to five million self-identified Mormons (active, faithful, or not--so including Jack Mormons). There are more self-identified former Mormons alive than self-identified Mormons alive.

Just before you joined them.

Haha. Exactly.

A cult, as defined by a Georgetown University US Religious history professor (a friend so I will not name her here), must have "evil at the core." My friend, sought out as an expert in cults and also a lay clergy member in her Protestant church, tells me that LDS inc. is "no longer a cult, but it once was." Her experience of course is that of an objective expert without the subjectivity we here at RfM have experienced.

The question then is "how evil is LDS inc?" These days it's easy to spot evil when there is a body count. It's harder to spot evil when a group asks you to give freely of your time, talents and energy and fails to really give you anything in return. I do not believe the church is evil at the core. And I agree with my professor then that the church is not a cult, by her definition.

However, you don't have to be a cult to use cult practices to get a group of people to fall in line. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a cult, but uses many cult like tactics to institutionalize their program. Corporations, governments, social clubs, and all other "non cult" churches also use cult like tactics (music, jargon, love bombing, etc.) to define themselves.

Those of us on RfM just happen to study, observe, and hold in contempt TSCCs "cult like" behaviors and therefore are quick to call it a cult.

I do not believe LDS inc. is a cult. I believe it was once a cult, and is now a very recent descendant of a bona fide cult (which explains it's continued, robust, and effective whitewashing of its history.)

Though if any one bunch of people have the right and experience to call it a cult it's you all.

;-)

If an organisation has to "have evil at it's core" to be classified as a cult, then surely an organisation that coerces members in a secret ceremony, not only to give everything they have to the church, but also that requires members to sacrifice their very lives if necessary for the organisation, must have some sort of evil at it's core.

Further, the "spectrum of evil" is a very long one is is highly subjective. One could argue that the thought reform techniques that are applied by the church are evil. That hiding sexual abuse cases from authorities is evil. Thought reform techniques applied to children from birth, the invasive sexual questions by untrained bishops to 12 year olds seeking temple recommends or priesthood advancement, the intensive training of missionaries who are separated physically and socially from family and friends for 2 years, untold psychological damage to millions of people, the list goes on........

They may not be murderous, committing genocide, abducting people back into the cult, but at the heart of TSCC, there is a highly sophisticated pattern of thought control and psychological abuse that stems from the need for control and the quest for greater worldy influence.

Isn't THAT what Satan promises in the temple presentation?

To me, all religions are to some extent, cults. I mean this independent of the dictionary definition, a loose definition assigns any sect as a cult...

What I mean is that any organization that requires its members to believe a dogma is cult, and Mormonism certainly is that. The loyalty test is at the point of getting a temple recommend. That's where one is required to affirm beliefs or it's no celestial kingdom for you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2013 04:58PM by rationalist01.

Control is what defines a cult.

How cult-like your upbringing was is dependent on how rigorously your parents followed the church's parenting guide lines. If your parents did as they were told, you may have been raised in a cult. (The family down the street, when I was growing up, was definitely a Mormon cult.)

Fortunately lots of our parents were slackers. (How many lessons did I sit through that painted our slacker family as less worthy?)

The church has a great deal of control over some of their members lives.

If you're on a mission you're in a cult.
If you go to BYU you're in a cult.
If you work for LDS Inc. you're in a cult.

That's a lot of control.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2013 05:16PM by crom.

I don't know if its a cult. But it's a group of people all pretending or believing that a fairy tale is true. It's a group of people ignoring thousands of facts that show their entire belief system is made up out of thin air. A group of deluded, incredibly ignorant, possibly stupid, or plain liars adhering to and proclaiming some absolute gibberish and nonsense to be the truth as espoused by a physical god.

Guys, take the cult label while you can.

Whether it's a cult depends on who you ask...I don't think there's any international governing body that determines what is and isn't a cult! Far as I'm concerned, it's a cult. And it ain't that big...especially when you count people who self-identify as Mormons and compare it to...well, just about any population. Also, plenty of people who think it's a cult won't call it that because it's a loaded word that seems like name-calling and then you can't have a rational conversation. Better, the thinking goes, that the Mormon realize on his own that he's a member of a cult.

To stop being classified as a cult, it would have to:

1. Stop or completely change the missionary program. The missionary program is straight out of "How to be a Cult, Class 101." The mission isolates the person from their friends and family, allows very limited (and controlled) contact, and they always have to be with a companion to "watch out for them" but whose real pupose is report anything the companion does out of line.

2. Stop requiring members to pay for salvation (entrance to the CK). That would mean allowing all members to attend the temple, attend weddings, and not just those who are caught up on tithing. (Not that most members not paying tithing have any real desire to attend the temple, other than for a wedding.)

3. Do away with the prophet and Big 15, and especially wipe out songs as "Praise to the Man" and "We Thank thee Oh God for a Prophet." Worshiping Joe Smith and the living propeht are main reasons outsiders consider them a cult. Yes, other religions consider singing as a part of worship, so if you sing about Joe and the the prophets, you are worshiping them. Can you imagine other religions singing "We thank thee of God for a Pope" or "Praise to Martin Luther" or "Hail to John Wesley."

4. Stop home/visiting teaching. Just another excuse to spy on members.

5. Do away with garments.

6. If as a religion you are going to have a "word of wisdom" then rather than going after "hot drinks" (interpreted as tea and coffee) you should include something about sugar, fats, and getting daily exercise.

7. Have trained clergy that have that as their only job. No more people that have no training in counselling giving out advice. No more correlation, but allow them to do their own talks.

8. Do away with worthiness interviews, especially for minors.

9. Stop the obsession with numbers. We have X number of members, new converts, missionaries, temples, etc.

10. Do away with GC. If you are getting rid of the prophet (#3), untrained clergy (#7), and stopping the obsession with numbers (#8) there is no need for GC.

11. Allow members to attend whatever ward they want. No more having assigned where and when you will go. If one of the new trained clergy is boring, and the one across the street is interesting, the numbers will reflect it.

12. Allow local wards to make their own budget, choose (or fire) their own (approved) bishop, have control of their own finances, and just send a portion (usually 10% in most religions) to the national organization.

12. Acknowledge they are not the "One True Church" and that there is no such thing.

That's a well thought out and expressed list of things that Mormons accept as normal and reasonable that are absurd and incredible to grown-ups.

Don't cha know? When Mitt was running for Prez, Billy Graham eliminated from his web site list of religious cults,the LDS Church. I believe that was the official notification from the religious right that the church was now acceptable as a true religion and not a cult.

One of the hallmarks of a cult is that cult members don't realize they are in one.

Mormonism is perhaps one of the most professional mind control cults going. As we remarked to John Sweeney of the BBC when he was here last year, its scientology, but smarter.

Anyone can check the various cult checklists on the interwebz and easily check off nearly every characteristic. One of my favs is www.howcultswork.com.

I attended the International Cult Studies Association meeting earlier this month in New Mexico, where the theme of the conference was dealing with family members still stuck in the cult. I assure you that mormonism is in no way considered "reformed" or past the point of qualifying.

The only thing that the SLC sect of mormonism can say is that it does not enslave the membership to such a degree that they withdraw completely from the rest of society into cloistered enclaves and that the members are, for the most part, regular contributing members of the larger society.

However, in psychological and emotional terms mostly hidden to the outside observer, mormonism tells its lies, sinks its hooks and the victims suffer tremendously as a result. Primarily in the areas of hyper-obsessive guilt, coerced time and work, organizational enmeshment, cult-hijacked family relationships, and pressure, pressure, pressure. Countless life decisions are made by millions relying on the false doctrine and false promises of mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2013 08:33PM by rodolfo.