I have been aware of polygamy (the teaching to young, pre-adolescent boys and girls a Mormon-originated principle that multiple wives for church-approved men is an important part of the Mormon eternal plan of salvation.

I know this practice became illegal in in the state of Utah in 1890 and became a cause for excommunication from the Brighamite branch of the LDS church in the early 1920's. multiple splinter groups and silent practitioners have developed since that policy change resulting in an estimate of over 40,000 polygamists, primarily in the Mormon corridor.

Where have you seen or heard reliable evidence of polygamists in recent years, let's say past 20 to present?

I know of polygamists families in the following places--all have the same fundamental beliefs of Mormonism (Joseph Smith, restored priesthood, Book of Mormon, living prophet, and eternal families)

Sandy, Utah
Hilldale, Utah/Colorado City, Arizona (formerly known as Short Creek)
Bountiful, British Columbia, Canada
Las Vegas, Nevada

I have a resource in mind that might be a helpful agent of information and change and need reliable areas of focus.

Polygamist could be the fundamentalists like Warren Jeffs or the assimilated "practicing", but hidden Mormons as shown in HBO's Big Love.

The YFZ ranch I think it's called?

I see them almost daily around Bluffdale, UT. I believe Bluffdale has the largest concentration of them in the valley. They have a church/temple just west of point of the mountain.

From what I understand, polygamy was ALWAYS illegal in Missouri, Illinois, AND Utah. New polygamous marriages might have been cause for excommunication by the 20's, but existing polygamous relationships continued well beyond that. I believe George Albert Smith was the first president that wasn't a polygamist, which means the church had a polygamous prophet up until 1945.

Krakauer's book "Under the Banner of Heaven" references open and known polygamous families and polygamous owned businesses in Ogden, Bountiful, and Southern Utah County around Salem. I was hoping to hear more first hand accounts.

There is also that more recent splinter group in Manti, Utah but I am not well acquainted with that group.

Please add to this discussion, if you have some awareness please share. This should have light on the matter, it has been going on for a very long time and these Brighamite regions of the Mormon corridor have been outwardly rejecting them while politically and legally protecting them under the guise of a First Amendment right of religion to train and make 14 year-old girls child brides. Religion is not cover for cults and religion is not cover for child and spouse abuse. We wouldn't tolerate it from Muslims, we shouldn't tolerate it from Mormons.

My Grandmother knew and associated with several polygamists in Bountiful, I met many of these people when I was a child, I never saw any evidence of 14 year old wives, but I can't say it did not happen. My Grandmother did not agree with polygamists but she said her Grandfather was a polygamist so she was at least semi comfortable that some people believed in the principle; she was very open minded and always taught that we should live and let live. She was a believing member and many in her family held high church offices, but she was very much a social liberal for her times, she made sure her daughters went to college and got advanced degrees, and careers not really the norm for Bountiful in those days.

If you mean Mormon polygamy here in W. PA, no, none that I know of. But if you are referring to other kinds, then yes, we've got it here.

In a Somali community that is fairly new, and in an established community of Muslims from Saudi Arabia that originally came here from Dearborn, MI about 15 years ago.

I believe authorities know about both groups, but I also believe they aren't too interested in doing anything at all about it.

When it comes to Utah, I think a better question would be, "In which town are there no polygamists?" There might not be any polygamists in Park City, but how could you know for sure? Not all polygamists look like the Hilldale/Colorado City, Yearning for Zion type polygamists. I have heard that there are a fair number of polygamists who are members of TSCC, live in suburban Utah wards and no one even knows that they're polygamists.

When my daughter was a young divorced mom being actived by a UofU student ward, she ran into a serial polygamist on an LDS dating site. He had legally divorced his first wife, who was passed her prime childbearing years and was looking for wife number two, who could give him more children. He made it clear that the first wife and her children were still very much part of his family. At least he was up front about it and my daughter didn't waste any time dating the creep.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2013 03:04PM by releve.

"Where have you seen or heard reliable evidence of polygamists in recent years, let's say past 20 to present?"

I see them all the time in Wal-Mart close to Bluffdale which is the home base for many.

A TBM Co-Worker of mine sees them...at HIS church all the time. The rank-n-file Mormons just turn a blind eye to the polygamists that go to their churches.

I truly think that the TBMs "wish" they could have multiple wives so that they can experience the true "fullness of the Gospel"...

My neighbor who was a polygamist attended Church a few times in my ward, the women of the ward did not like her, but her daughters were welcome in Sunday School and Primary, they disappeared when they were about 14. I often wonder if they were married off.

My girlfriend in highschool was called in by her Bishop and given a lecture about not believing anyone who would approach her and try to get her to enter into polygamy, several Bishops in Bountiful did this to several girls. This really shook them up, blew my mind too.

I grew up in Bountiful and my grandparents were the children of the first pioneers to settle there. The Kingston family practiced semi-openly in Bountiful/Woodscross/ West Bountiful. They owned lots of property and businesses. One I was fairly familiar with as a kid was the Davis County CO-OP shoe store on Main Steet in Bountiful. I believe it was in business into the late 70s. My grandparents owned property close to the Kingstons and were on good terms with them. Many TBMs avoided doing business with them. My mother was frightened of them. I know as recently as ten years ago the Kingstons had several businesses still in Bountiful and I hired some to work for me, I did not realize it was a Kingston Family business until I made out the check to pay them.

I had a neighbor who was a young woman and her husband was never around she hired me when I was a teenager to do yard work for her. My mother flipped out. It seems she was a polygamist, but had multiple husbands who would come and spend different weekends with her; I did not catch on until I came back from my mission.

Anon for this one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had a neighbor who was a young woman and her
> husband was never around she hired me when I was a
> teenager to do yard work for her. My mother
> flipped out. It seems she was a polygamist, but
> had multiple husbands who would come and spend
> different weekends with her; I did not catch on
> until I came back from my mission.

This is a good story and I'm glad you posted it, but what you're describing here is not polygamy, it is polyandry (multiple husbands), or polyamory (multiple committed partners; genders are up to the people directly involved).

Neither polyandry or polyamory are derived from LDS theology or culture, and both exist (in what appear to be growing numbers and acceptance) in society at large.

LDS polygamy is usually highly patriarchal and highly authoritarian.

Polyandry, and--in particular--polyamory are--in contrast to LDS-style and traditional (Islamic, etc.) polygamy--usually highly internally democratic (everyone has a say in important decisions, etc.) and egalitarian (no one is necessarily in a superior position, and certainly no one is in a superior position due to gender, "priesthood," or any other arbitrary factor).

She was from the Kingston Polyg COOP clan, and yes she also practiced Polyandry ... she was also a nice hippy girl. It was the seventies.

The Mormon version of polygamy and polyandry evolved from Mormonism. I understand the intellectual reason to try to correct the origin, but do not trust it because it is usually attached to Old Treatment, Koran, tribal or other forms of origin.

Polygamy in America is almost entirely founded upon uniform Mormon doctrines with splinter groups arguing subtleties. Joseph Smith brought that polygamy to this country. Not the OT kind, or the Koran, kind, or the tribal kind. he created the Mormon kind of polygamy, and it's the biggest version here 170 years later. People can talk about indigenous peoples, communes, amd other very, very small and non-influential groups--the truth is polygamy in the United States is Mormon owned, manufactured, and sold. (Joseph Smith, First Vision, Book of Mormon, restored priesthood, and living prophet). All unique to Mormonism, the Abraham excuse is not the doctrinal origin, it was post coitus whitewashing by Joseph Smith to Emma and friends. You can justify any silly or serious behavior using scripture. It's all in there, just choose one verse and ignore ten others.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2013 04:50PM by gentlestrength.

Those businesses that closed, then reopened, closed again. IMO they did it because they were doing illegal things. For the grocery story it was food stamp fraud. After one or more of their employees left the community, they closed almost immediately. They opened again briefly, then closed permanently. I read on the internet that someone saw a van from a shredder service come in, spend the day, then leave. I am told that the scam was that the women there would take their foodstamps to the store and turn them in to the store, which was owned by the church. They didn't get any food for them. They just turned them in. Then, the church used the food stamps to "buy" groceries from the store, which were then given to the Bishop's Storehouse. Then they would redeem the food stamps for cash. So the church got the food and they got the cash and the families who gave them the food stamps got whatever the church decided to give them to eat.

A story within the past year in the SLTrib reported that a very high percentage of the people in Hildale/Colorado City are on food stamps. It is a real scam. The church kicks out the fathers, but tells them that to repent and get their families back they have to work and send money back to the church. Not to their "wives" and children, mind you. Then, because the families in Short Creek (the collective name for the 2 towns) have no father and no father's income, they are eligible for food stamps and Medicaid for the children. The government is supposed to go after the fathers to collect child support, but they don't do it.

IMO, the FLDS people could not survive and maintain their lifestyle without "bleeding the beast". You can't expel the money makers (fathers) and keep the eaters (women and children, who don't work) and stay afloat financially. I think it is outrageous that we subsidize this very dysfunctional lifestyle like this.

Other polygamy groups don't necessarily do this, though reportedly the Kingston group perpetuate similar fraud on the system.

But there's a polyg clan just over the NM/AZ border. They somehow gained a government contract to work on the Navajo Pipeline. BF met them awhile ago. There's polyg clans all over the place, it seems.

The first time I saw FLDS, I was waiting tables at the Provo VI. I thought they were some offshoot of Mennonites at first. I was really disturbed when I realized what those poor kids might be going through.

All Americans, and especially Utah and Mormon informed individuals should be disturbed. It is an offense similar to slavery, they enslave newborns with cult behaviors, doctrines, and isolationism.

The men often frequent single adult dances, trolling for new wives.
I have also seen them shopping in various Morridor cities at stores like WalMart and Costco, plus once in a health food store.
They also attend college, although sometimes they don't wear the traditional clothes and hairstyles. Most of the ones I have met seem to be more fundy types.

I knew a classmate in the early '70's who's father was a polygamist in North Ogden . The father was a well to do landscape business owner that owned several homes in a cul de sac , where he housed them all .

Last time I saw any openly was in Pleasant Grove, Utah, at the Purple Turtle drive in. They all came in for ice cream cones. All got the same thing, as I suppose it is easier to just order a couple dozen of the same little thing. All dressed in long dresses (girls) and long sleeve dress shirts buttoned up at the collars (boys). A couple of 15 passenger vans to cart them around. It appeared to be a big deal and treat for them.

Sad!

We are also dealing with two cities called Bountiful.

The one in Canada is an open conclave.
The one in Davis County Utah has multiple groups that practice "the principle". Though they are not part of Jeffs group. You can't tell just by looking at them.

There is a sprinkling of polygamists all through Utah.
I had and elderly triple well into their 80s that lived down the street from me in the 60s/70s.

In high school there were a few open triples as well.

As recently as 5 years ago a muslim family moved in down the street. He had three wives and was on a work exchange visa so the feds knew what was happening. I think the State department will issue visas and grant asylum to polygamist families from overseas.

I was working at a tech support job after I graduated from college and I had a semi-frequent caller that I got to be friendly with. He wanted my picture and I directed him to my page on the internet. It was fun flirting with him but then he asked me about getting married and said had two wives already...

In 2008 it was pretty clear that the ward south of Center Street in Spring City, UT was predominant Allred polygamist. The locals are mum about it, but if you let on you already know, they admit to it.


My Dad was mentored by Rullon Allred himself in the mid 70's. He refuses to talk about it. But as late as the 90's he's been caught sneaking out to see his "other" families. This is actually an issue, because he's really old and we need to know if he has any children out there. (Anyone know how to find out under these circumstances? Dad swears he has no other children but he's told so many lies . . . )

You guys all have me beat. I've only seen them in Costco in Sandy. Like maybe twice.

Any known communities in Idaho, Arizona, or Nevada. I know that a small town in South Eastern Colorado called Manassa was used by Mormon polygamists to ide their second and third wives and families during the post 1890 pre-WW2 era of Mormon wink, wink polygamy aoidance.

To think of it now I have heard there is a polygamous community near Salem, Oregon--I believe to the east. I wish we could combine our knowledge and help our Federal government force fundamentalist states that permit polygamy by not enforcing and providing healthy alternaives to crazy Mormonism practiced as created.

In the Bountiful BC area there are two factions. The group loyal to Warren Jeffs and the group that split off and is loyal to Winston Blackmore. The split occurred as the result of the Jeffs group ordering blood atonement on a 16 yr old girl fleeing a forced marriage to a geriatric. The Blackmore group gave the girl refuge and conflict resulted for disobeying the prophet. There were split families on both sides of the issue. The Blackmore group is more liberal having employment in trucking, forestry, agriculture and horticulture. I have found their clothing & hairstyles are less extreme than the Jeff's group sporting typical prairie dress and pompadour hairdos. You will see folks in Creston doing their shopping. The Jeffs people seem to be more reclusive living in the hills.

Polygamy is a serious human rights violation, seems like Canada Supreme Court came down quite hard on the Blackmore leader for tax fraud and polygamy.

I am curious how polygamy is a human rights violation. Are you suggesting they were forced or under age?

For those of you who support LGBT and gay marriage what is the difference between their love and a polygamist or polyandrous love? If I understand the issue, the problem is underage or non-consent correct?

Here is the decision. It is more than 300 pages long. I have read the whole thing and if you sincerely want an answer to what is wrong with polygamy you should read it in its entirety. The government essentially commissioned the world's leading experts on polygamy throughout the world, interviewed current and former polygamists (giving current plygs immunity from prosecution so they could talk freely) and gathered information from all kinds of polygamists and polyamorists.

For a brief summary of the ills of polygamy read paragraphs 7-15, one of which says this:

"[14] Polygamy’s harm to society includes the critical fact that a great many of its individual harms are not specific to any particular religious, cultural or regional context. They can be generalized and expected to occur wherever polygamy exists."

Here is the link:

http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/11/15/2011BCSC1588.htm

Polygamy is nothing like same-sex marriage, which involves exactly two people, not groups of people. Same sex marriage allows the same laws that now govern marriages to continue to govern marriages between two people of the same sex. If polygamy were legalized, states would have to completely re-vamp their domestic codes and their inheritance laws to change how property is classified and distributed upon dissolution and death.

Nobody in America really cares any more who consenting adults sleep with, live with, or have children with, but that is a far cry from figuring out how to grant property rights potentially competing people with finite resources, especially when those rights inevitably involve children.

Polygamy may very well become decriminalized at some point in the United States, based not on same-sex marriage decisions so much as on Lawrence v. Texas, which decriminalizes sex acts between consenting adults. That is not the same as making it legal, for the reasons already stated and a multitude of other reasons stated in the Canadian decision.

In Utah, some polygamist groups, like the Allred group (Apostolic United Brethren) and many "Independents" blend in with society and cause few problems. They purport to forbid underage marriages, though that is not always true, I am told. But polygamy inherently causes gender imbalance in marriage, and the societal consequences of polygamy are significant. They include downward pressure on the age of female marriage, much less parental involvement by fathers in the lives of their children, and the creation of a class of males who are perpetually shut out of the opportunity to marry. That class of perpetually unmarried men creates problems for society. Read the decision for more information on that and other topics.

?? Why would supporting same-sex marriage necessitate supporting multiple or group marriage. Opposite sex marriage involves two people, same-sex marriage involves two people. Once you add a third we're talking about an entirely new type of contract with complexities that don't crop up in a dyad.

I wouldn't say polygamy is a human rights violation inherently, but it tends to appear in societies with a lot of inequality, both between the sexes and in society as a whole. You end up with a small number of rich men with multiple wives and a large number of poor men unable to marry at all. Not a recipe for a healthy society. In societies with greater equality, women aren't willing to put up with this arrangement, which normally is disadvantageous for them.

That response was to secular, though it seems to have popped up in the wrong place.

Watched a couple of episodes of "Sister Wives" on TLC one night after getting into some California greens, didn't hate it.

A plig construction outfit build the last LDS church house to go up in Ephraim. Their kids were there working too.

There were plig families at silver creek estates, Summit county 30 years ago. John Singer and the Swaps in Oakley, A Green (Tom?) in Nephi that went to jail for his very young wife.

Violation of child labor laws is the rule for the FLDS, not the exception. A company that hired the FLDS to pick pecans recently got fined for doing it. Usually, though, it is young boys working on construction sites doing hazardous jobs and working long hours and not getting paid.

I see them all the time in Southern Utah. I remember as a teenager working in Wal-Mart, and they would come through my
register all the time.

It would literally take me 20 minutes to check them out. I
remember being utterly amazed at how many diapers, and how much food they bought. One came through with 12 baskets.

But yeah, they are always quiet (all the ones I met anyways. The women just seem to do their thing and be on their way without much of a conversation). :)