So we know that the LDS org has a lot of revenue. Where does the money go? What is it used for? Namely, who benefits?

Great and spacious buildings, such as temples, the $3 billion + mall, buying up land around temple square, game reserves, housing developments for the rich in Hawaii. You know, stuff that really benefits the members.
Susan

escapee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great and spacious buildings, such as temples, the
> $3 billion + mall, buying up land around temple
> square, game reserves, housing developments for
> the rich in Hawaii. You know, stuff that really
> benefits the members.
> Susan


Yep. Because you know that 1st century Jewish Rabbi guy....what's his name?.......Oh yeah, Jesus? He was really in to those things. And when he said to feed the poor and clothe the naked, he meant from the food court and the Gap. Those corrupt translaters left that part out.

caedmon Wrote:
---------------->
> Yep. Because you know that 1st century Jewish
> Rabbi guy....what's his name?.......Oh yeah,
> Jesus? He was really in to those things. And
> when he said to feed the poor and clothe the
> naked, he meant from the food court and the Gap.

OMG caedmon you are so funny! You made me laugh out loud right in front of my TBM DH. Fortunately, he didn't ask what I was reading, because he may or may not have thought that was as funny as I did. I'm still giggling.

You are right on all those. WHY I ask don't the LDS people demand an account??? Another reason it is a cult. They are taught not to question.

I want to know where every penny goes if I'm expected to invest. After all, it's my money. I'm tired of church's and governments playing god.

Why do so many conservative members scream about wanting government transparency, but don't blink an eye with the lack of transparency by the church? I guess they believe the church is led by men of God who would never do anything unrighteous with their money!!

Really good question. I never thought of that before.

Well, as they still refuse to publish financial information we cannot say really where it goes.
However, from the information that does get published we can safely say that is DOES NOT go towards helping the poor and the needy.

Would Christ spend the money the way the General Authorities spend it...

An educated estimate, derived from factual information regarding BYU's size, number of faculty, number of students, number of buildings owned, etc. Also culled from the General Conference statistics, regarding number of wards, assuming 2 wards per building. Most operate at 3 wards per building, so this would be a conservative estimate.

$1 Billion per year-subsidies to operate BYU-Provo,-Idaho, -Hawaii

$900 Million per year-constructing ward meetinghouses and temples, at an estimated cost of $2million per chapel, 400 chapels per year, and estimating another $100million in psuedo-masonic higher-end temple construction.

$218 Million per year-paying utilities, etc. for meetinghouses and temples. Assumes a utility cost of $15,000 per year per building, 28,400 wards divided by 2 wards per building, plus 150 temples x $30k in maintenance costs for each temple. Maintenance cost for university buildings included in BYU subsidy figure above. Carpet replacement and furniture replacement not included. I dont' have the patience to figure depreciation for various items in 14,200 buildings.

$30 Million-Printed materials for lesson manuals, handbooks, etc, assuming a cost of $5.00 per member, and 6,000,000 active members. They ain't gonna waste ink on inactives.

Grand Total: $2.148 Billion

This leaves a surplus of $3 Billion for the church to play with, assuming that Time Magazine's estimate of church income at $5 billon per year is correct, which I believe it is.

The church-owned businesses such as Deseret Book and the welfare storehouses are for-profit entities, so we'll assume those are self-sustaining, and do not cause a drain on the tithing flow.

countries must be cheaper than what you estimate. Also, maintenance and utilities are cheaper there also. The chapels that I saw in the Philippines had been built well, but were falling apart, and not being fixed. Certainly they were not getting new furniture.

Plus, I've seen some U.S. chapels that don't look like they have been maintained all that well.

You seem so good with numbers!!

I'm in the building industry, and used to work for an LDS architect in the late 90's that did alot of church work. Plus, I read a recent article about a meetinghouse just built in Utah that has solar panels. I was able to infer from the article that it costs $6000 a year for a church's electric bill, which is by far the most expensive ongoing cost a building that size will have. So I more than doubled that figure to account for all the other costs, like trash pickup, gas bill, phone, irrigation, etc.
And, hey, these are just educated guesses. No one will really know, but I think this gets us in the ballpark.

Remove the $30 million for printed materials, that comes out of the ward budget.

Are you serious!?!? The wards actually pay for those?

I'm not positive, the clerk always handled that, but I'm pretty sure. I was in a ward once where they asked for a donation of something like $2 for each manual you wanted to help defer the ward budget costs.

If I were a member paying 10% of my income to the church, giving me a $2 manual without asking for more money seems bare minimum ROI.

Partly correct...

Wards do "pay" for manuals and such, but that's just a matter of moving money around departments within the church. The Church prints the manuals and then wards/branches "pay" for them using ward budget funds. Money is simply moved from the ward to distribution services.

the church claims almost 14 million members. if we say that only 4 million are active (28% active) and each of them pay an average of $1250 in tithing *annually* then you've got $5 billion right there, but of course you have to factor in children in the active statistic, so say 1 million tithe payers, then the number would need to be $5000 annually per tithe payer.

We don't know where the money goes.

cleaning supplies

church employees, and legal fees worldwide.

They buy fried pickles with it. I heard this from a person who works in the church headquarters.

147 high schools in Utah.(wikipedia) They probably pay peanuts but lets be generous and say the teachers get paid $30k per year. Add Idaho and some other high population mormon states, and round to 200 high schools. 200 x 30k-

$6 million a year-CES high school

500 plus institutes of religion(wikipedia) x $30k a year-

$15 million a year- CES college

Ward Budgets-
28,400 Wards x $5000 per year average=$142 million

2.148 Billion OP expenses
+ 6 Million CES high school
+ 15 Million CES College
+ 142 Million Ward Budgets
- 30 Million (correction for printed materials )
______________
2.281 Billion in Expenses

5 Billion in Income

2.719 Billion in Prophet

Even if these expense numbers are low, its clear where the church's priorities lie- the continued indoctrination of its members as they become teenagers and college students.

Wiki conveniently doesn't mention the SF of the COB. No way to tell how many employees there are-

Assume 500 employees in the COB at $50k a year, you could throw in another $25 million, but I think that comes out of the ward budget ;-)

It seems their top priority is turning a profit, not any programs for members' benefits.

Misfit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 147 high schools in Utah.(wikipedia) They
> probably pay peanuts but lets be generous and say
> the teachers get paid $30k per year. Add Idaho
> and some other high population mormon states, and
> round to 200 high schools. 200 x 30k-
>
> $6 million a year-CES high school
>
> 500 plus institutes of religion(wikipedia) x $30k
> a year-
>
> $15 million a year- CES college
>
> Ward Budgets-
> 28,400 Wards x $5000 per year average=$142
> million
>
> 2.148 Billion OP expenses
> + 6 Million CES high school
> + 15 Million CES College
> + 142 Million Ward Budgets
> - 30 Million (correction for printed materials
> )
> ______________
> 2.281 Billion in Expenses
>
> 5 Billion in Income
>
> 2.719 Billion in Prophet
>
> Even if these expense numbers are low, its clear
> where the church's priorities lie- the continued
> indoctrination of its members as they become
> teenagers and college students.

I don't remember the last time I heard about a new chapel being built. And, the new temples are not like the older ones. They're MacTemples, really small. And not many of those.

With wards being consolidated, there isn't the need in most places outside of the Moridor for new buildings. I just don't think much is going toward construction these days.

There is surplus tithing by any calculations. GA's are fond of saying that no tithing $$ is used in LDS Inc.'s many, many, many for-profits. I'm not convinced.

Also, I know that GA's are salaried nicely, but the real $$ is made sitting on the various Boards of Directors for the for-profits. Probably very little actual work involved there, however.

I recall Hinckley's talk, "Why We Do The Things We Do?" on church businesses and references to the mall. Aside from that, where else can you find references to the restricted use of tithing?

I used to think that as well. But the part of the BYU (Utah/Idaho/Hawaii) budget that the church covers could easily come from just a few businesses on the for-profit side of the church. No tithing money needed.

Which still begs the question...

@helamon
I do find it quite foolish that members don't seem to worry about financial transparency regarding church funds. This especially since an important teaching spouted by the door to door salesmen is regarding "the great apostacy", where the church after Christ, led by prophets and "righteous" priesthood holders fell into sin and wickedness, eventually losing its divine authority.
Modern members seem not to realize that early apostles of the LDS were excommunicated, or if they do, they do not make the connection that this clearly means the GAs of today can be corrupt.
Why have members now seemed to accept so blindly that their leaders are infallible? It is ridiculous and evidence of a personality cult.

a good retort to the "speaking as a man", "he's just a man, he's not perfect" excuses:

then why do you trust him/them blindly with the lard's money and require no transparency?

My sister works for the Church Dist. Center and they already got rid of the graveyard shift a while back, and they've been talking more lay offs or demoting people.

This with the whole begging for free janitors thing, I've been talking to her about the mall, and resort in Hawaii, and all the money they're spending and she gets even more pissed than she already is.

Apparently they don't care about their members having jobs, they just want to build malls and MAKE money! Sounds real spiritually handled to me, no way it could be all about business...right??!!!!

voluntarily turn over 10% to idiots.

I'm a big fool then. But, hey, if my daughter goes to BYU, I'll get some of my tithing back!

Maybe so, but a degree from BYU is a detriment in non-Mormon country. It's actually worse than not having a degree at all.

I have a BYU degree and had no trouble getting jobs. Places I've worked (1200 miles from Zion) had BYU grads working there, and applying for jobs. It was never the slightest problem as far as I could tell.

It might be different in social science fields, but in engineering, BYU has a pretty good rep.

I have a BYU BA in history and my degree has never been anything but a solid asset, and I left Utah the day I finished my last final.

apparently they love mormons and "Mormons are very good at following orders. They beat out Marines when it comes to Obeying Authority." (to quote someone from this article: Why does the CIA and the FBI hire Mormons to help traffic narcotics and launder money? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/2369395#ixzz1Ddpfbmkj

You expect to be taken seriously with a comment like that?

I am a BYU alum with two grad degrees from highly respected East Coast universities. I have never once felt my BYU education to be anything of an asset. I'm a bit embarassed by its LDS affiliation, but otherwise BYU is an excellent university. Academically, I'm very glad that I attended.

I realize that it's fashionable to bash BYU, but it is a nationally recognized university with some excellent undergraduate programs.

> I realize that it's fashionable to bash BYU

they should rename BYU to the U of MVP (university of a murdering, vain, polygamist) =)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2011 10:31AM by Nick Humphrey.

Again, you are attacking the school's sponsor and not its academics. Academically, it is a very defensible choice.

i also went there for 3 years, but moved out of country before i graduated. i did a completely different 3 year fast-track BA program here in norway. byu was a disneyland university, culturally, which, from my experience also negatively affected it's academics. teacher's/professors restricted/censored concerning what they could teach or opine in the classroom, etc...
but i have lots of good memories from my time being there (except for getting shot and blinded in my eye), but i bet my college experienced would have been even MORE fun had i not been mormon at a mormon university.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2011 11:20AM by Nick Humphrey.

Maybe in things like engineering or business BYU has a good reputation, but in any kind of "critical thinking" or "liberal arts" jobs, a BYU degree is definitely considered a detriment outside of Utah.

Sure, maybe it's not as bad as Corinthian Colleges or some other "for profit," but the Ivy League or a good State college it is not.