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Posted by: Tango ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 02:58AM

From the MADB site link below, of course my last post on there will get me banned (read my comments from Tango)...this will be # 6 for me..lol
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/51595-packer-talk-corrected-in-published-version/page__gopid__1208922276

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Posted by: mtnmdwcookiemonster ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 03:13AM

The morg likes to try to change history. How could they edit the inspired words of the apostle speaking as an apostle? How could people see their church leaders try to change their church's history right before their eyes with "editing"? Folks in the future would not even know what Packer really said if the morg had its way. If they "edit" his remarks and no one records them, they change history- even if only really the perception of history via the morg editors.

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Posted by: They don't want me back ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 03:14AM


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Posted by: f_melo ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 03:19AM

someone posted videos of general conference on youtube. The full talk can be watched here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C1wUI5xuhs&feature=channel

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Posted by: michael ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 10:48AM

I just flagged the original speech as "hate speech."

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 10:57AM


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Posted by: helios ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 04:18AM

WTF? Do they really think they can pull this off in this day and age? His talk has been posted to youtube dozens of times already. It's not hard to get a hold of the original version. Do they really think they can make a few edits and no one will notice?

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 04:54AM

I saw some pro-LDS discussion on this and they think it is a GOOD thing that the text has changed from the original speech!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 05:17AM

"How is that [changing the talk] being dishonest?"

Uh, OK...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2010 05:18AM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 11:00AM

Public be damned. The starry-eyed membership will soldier on.

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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 04:39AM

Haven't had time to confirm this myself. Do you think the press will pick this up or has the story run itself out?

tendencies becomes temptation. Explicit statement of what a Heavenly Father would do is dropped.

Wish I could have been a fly on the wall in the meetings were this was worked out.


Talk:
Some suppose that they were pre-set and cannot overcome what they feel are in born tendencies towards the impure and the un-natural. Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone ?."

Article:
Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 04:56AM

http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1275

The scary thing is, they seem to think it a good thing the changes are being made!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 05:01AM

One of the posters on that MADB thread compares "SSA" with Tourettes Syndrome:

"...just because 'Tourettes Syndrome' has the word syndrome in it, whereas SSA does not, doesn't mean they can't be compared.

"Because from this aspect, they are both psychological issues, which the person has to deal with.

"In my case, the psychological weakness called Tourette's made it more difficult for me to overcome addictions associated with relief of stress.

"In their [GLBT] case, the psychological weakness which has not been named made it more difficult to obtain a natural affection.

"Both are barriers, yes, but both can be overcome if the person chooses to do so.

"And don't get me wrong Tourette's isn't always a weakness, it can be a strength in other ways too ;-) But I bet so can SSA, although being a weakness, it can be a strength in other ways."
-----

What the ...? Sounds like this person has Tourette's Syndrome and somewhere has picked up the mistaken notion that it is a "psychological weakness" and is able to be "overcome" by a person's strength of will. Hence, to remain with symptoms of Tourette's or to be GLBT is to fail to choose to change or "overcome".

The ignorance - and tragedy - are stunning.

The web site of the National Tourette Syndrome Foundation says, in part:

"Gilles de la Tourette syndrome (Tourette Syndrome or TS) is a neurological disorder which becomes evident in early childhood or adolescence before the age of 18 years. Tourette syndrome is defined by multiple motor and vocal tics lasting for more than one year. The first symptoms usually are involuntary movements (tics) of the face, arms, limbs or trunk. These tics are frequent, repetitive and rapid. The most common first symptom is a facial tic (eye blink, nose twitch, grimace), and is replaced or added to by other tics of the neck, trunk, and limbs.

"These involuntary (outside the patient's control) tics may also be complicated, involving the entire body, such as kicking and stamping. Many persons report what are described as premonitory urges -- the urge to perform a motor activity. Other symptoms such as touching, repetitive thoughts and movements and compulsions can occur.

"There are also verbal tics. These verbal tics (vocalizations) usually occur with the movements. These vocalizations include grunting, throat clearing, shouting and barking."

The site also defines TS as a movement disorder.

http://www.tsa-usa.org/


So, we have the FACTS, which are:

1. TS is a neurological condition, in the realm of medical science.

2. It is also defined as a "movement disorder". (Again, this falls into the realm of Neurology - the branch of medicine that deals with nerves - nerves transmit messages from the brain to the rest of the body, influencing muscle movement and speech, among other biological forces).

3. TS is "outside the patient's control". (Hence, not a choice or a "weakness" that can be voluntarily overcome).

4. TS is NOT a "psychological weakness", as the MADB poster asserts.

5. In conditions like ADHD and OCD, psychological issues may also be present in some people and can be addressed by therapists with perhaps behavioural modifications etc being part of suggested and successful coping strategies. In TS, such conditions may also be present in some people and such strategies may be employed if so. This is vastly different from considering that the abnormal motor activity is within a person's control (i.e., voluntary) when it is well understood to be a neurological condition that gives rise to involuntary muscle movements, completely not within the person's power to overcome by desire or will. (If that were so, how relatively simple the treatment could potentially be compared to the medical reality). The treatment plan for an individual with TS can include suggestions for dealing with ADHD or OCD, etc, if present, and may include medications, depending on the neurological symptoms they exhibit. A person with TS eing given strategies to deal with ADHD, for example, if concurrently present, does not in any way mean that their TS is a psychological condition and certainly not that it is within their own control to "cure" it.

If this MADB poster, who has TS it would seem, can be so appallingly ignorant about that, is it possible to be equally as ignorant about "SSA"? It would seem so, as he is going on about how TS can be overcome by will power, as if it's a character trait or a personal weakness that can be changed. In their world I guess that makes sense. That's the world where a neurological affliction is a "weakness" that can be "overcome" by just choosing not to have the muscle and vocal tics any more.

The guy should call up the Mayo Clinic and let them know of his breakthrough regarding this challenging neurological condition. It would seem that it's not a medical issue after all, but one of personal weakness, comparable in his world to "SSA" that can likewise be "overcome" by exerting one's will to change from being gay into being a heterosexual person.

Ignorant.

Sad.

Dangerous.

(Edited once for clarity and once to add in the web site address for source).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2010 05:21AM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 11:37AM

I wonder if he has even been diagnosed with Tourette's. I have Tourette's, and there is nothing psychological about it. His analogy actually weakens his point. I can suppress the motor and vocal tics, but it's like holding my breath. There is no stopping them, and no amount of therapy or mockery is going to help. Does he really think it's an issue of mind over matter? I could just slap that guy. I have the mildest case I've ever seen too. Every other person I've known with Tourette's has terrifying tics that make a social life and even employment nearly impossible.

Some people are so desperate to bully others that they will even misrepresent science and medicine to make any difference look like a sin. Then they'll try to seem magnanimous and say "See? The table is all spread out for you. All that remains is for you to partake, but you won't even reach out your hand." I think people like this are despicable, and they'll cowardly hide under the skirts of their hateful gods, churches and bigoted cowardly leaders like Mr. Packer to take their pot shots.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 12:01PM

Nightingale, I agree with you 100%. There is something that is glaringly forgotten ALL THE TIME when they start these arguments--nobody ever tells them that they are a mistake. Nobody ever tells them that God "hates" them. I was told my boyfriend was damned just for saying he was gay 27 years ago. Now, they have softened on that, but tell me the day that any LDS leader got up in a meeting and stated that tourette's sufferers were going to hell if they didn't control their symptoms, that they could never marry, have a loving relationship (without ruining other lives and their own). There is NO COMPARISON in what judgment is handed out to gays.

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Posted by: Levi ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 05:31AM

we should all make sure we download the current video. They somehow manage to get vids pulled all the time.

I've already pulled his whole speech and saved it.

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Posted by: ed ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 07:14AM

I just found a website that supposedly has all of the edits to the talk. Honestly, I am not seeing all that much that is different, save one item. Referring to the Proclamation on the Family we have:

Old: It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and would do well that members of the church to read and follow it.
New: It is a guide that members of the Church would do well to read and to follow.

http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=299

So, I think the speech is still just as hateful and deplorable as it was on Sunday. There are edits, yes, but they aren't the kind of substantial edits that I think we were all desperately hoping to see.

Admittedly, I have only been to one site in looking at this. If anyone knows of anything more noteworthy, I would love to hear.

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Posted by: ed ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 07:21AM

Found one other change that I think is huge:

Old: Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.

New: Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.

The line removed was probably one of the most offensive. This is a large change.

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Posted by: dr5 ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 08:32AM

Exactly. This got left out: "Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?"

That was the line that made me cringe. Worse than any birth defect or disability, surely HF wouldn't do THAT to anyone.

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Posted by: ed ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 11:30AM

That was my immediate reaction as well. Birth defects, inborn sterility, hermaphroditism, and a host of other horrible things can happen to a person before they even take their first breath.

It certainly seems very capricious on the part of a loving God to prevent only one very minor one that, incidentally, does zero harm to anyone.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 02:26PM

ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Referring to the Proclamation on the Family we
> have:
>
> Old: It qualifies according to the definition as
> a revelation and would do well that members of the
> church to read and follow it.

*
> New: It is a guide that members of the Church
> would do well to read and to follow.
>
> http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=299
>


Packer implicitly asserts that GBH's PotF is 'A REVELATION' to which he lends the weight of his own exhortation.

The Breatherun have obviously taken the 'revelation' wind out of Packer's puffed-up sails.

Any idea why they would do that folks?

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Posted by: ed ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 02:51PM

I personally saw this as clever positioning in case they ever need to backpedal on this issue. Its one thing if the Proclamation is Doctrine (ouch for the Morg), but it is quite another if it is only a policy and cute guide.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 03:01PM

Seriously, small seemingly subtle changes can have profound impacts on meaning and perception.

The fact that changes are being made to the speech that change substitutive issues shows a lack of integrity from the LDS leadership.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2010 03:02PM by MJ.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 08:16AM

Download it now before they clip it.

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Posted by: Heidi GWOTR ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 12:00PM


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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 12:13PM

LDS dot org

Go to the general conference link, click language preference, find Packer.

As of this morning the audio was intact.
The videos also remain unedited.

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Posted by: blindmag ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 08:34AM

OK do people still have the origonal recording of the speaches?
you need to get someone who's not had a single thing to do with ex mormons other than being hired to do this and not had anything to do with mormonisum to litrelay transcribe the hole lot word for word.

They cant get away with over editing as they normaly do. The only way to do that is have an indipendant record made.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 11:39AM

I would guess that the new transcripts are what was put on the teleprompter and had been previously vetted.

Everything else is stuff Packer threw in off the cuff, unapproved.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 11:48AM

No "off the cuff" comments.
Then when the LDS Church got so much flack over his talk, which I think surprised these elderly men who apparently don't live in the real world, they decided to back off and tone it down.
They will root out all copies of the actual speech and delete them if at all possible.
Just my guess! :-)

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Posted by: anonow ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 01:06PM

Talk:
"Some suppose that they were pre-set and cannot overcome what they feel are in born tendencies towards the impure and the un-natural. Not so. Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone ?."

Article:
Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father."

Actually, what he said is what I had always been taught. That everyone is born with "tendencies", but that god would not give anyone "tendencies" that were too hard to overcome.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: October 18, 2010 04:10PM


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Posted by: Just a looky loo ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 03:22PM

this is just insane! I'm a nevermo lurker. The public needs
to know that this crazy cult pretending to be a church does this kind of crap! Changes speeches after they are given and try to delete all record of the originals????? That is so 'Big Brother'!!

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: October 08, 2010 05:24PM

Just a looky loo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>That is so 'Big Brother'!!

In SLC, it's Big Bretheren.

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Posted by: Puli ( )
Date: October 18, 2010 04:17PM

Yes! It is being editted.

I think the HRC (I think) got it right when they said that the Mormon church changing Packer's speech is acknowledgement of the fact that it was damaging, hateful, and harmful. Other top leaders of the church know it and they are trying to midigate the harm Packer's speech does (as well as the fallout to their PR).

Too bad they refuse to cut the disease out at the source - BKKKP himself. He is the one who needs to be edited - right off the board of directors for TSCC.

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Posted by: Puli ( )
Date: October 18, 2010 04:28PM

becomes considered anti-Mormon?

How soon before TBM's begin calling those who quote the real talk given verbally are called liars because it is incongruent with the written talk?

My guess is it's already begun for the first question, and will occur for the second very shortly after the initial backlash to BKP's talk dies down and is brought up by someone again.

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