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Posted by: ANON 4 this ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 09:43PM

I have confronted certain family members with crazy amounts of evidence proving the falseness of the church and they are completely unaffected. They believe that the facts are not as important as the truth they feel from their testimonies and experiences. My husband said his experiences are more important than facts. How are experiences and emotions reliable? Have I not been properly indoctrinated and brainwashed in the same way as them? Why are some able to snap out of it and others are hopeless?

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Posted by: ANON 4 this ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 09:45PM

I just don't know how you can't look at the historical issues and say "holy sh%t It's bogus!

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Posted by: redpillswallowed ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 09:49PM

ANON 4 this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just don't know how you can't look at the
> historical issues and say "holy sh%t It's bogus!


+100

I spent 3 hours explaining all the biggest issues to a family member. All the stuff that made me want to run from TSCC. His response was basically that he doesn't care about history, just that he enjoys his Ward and that's good enough for him.

I don't get it at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2013 09:49PM by redpillswallowed.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 10:25PM

“A Man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”


― Benjamin Franklin

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Posted by: beyondashadow ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 12:59AM

A famous person once said:

"People believe what they believe because they WANT to believe it."

All true, except that I am not famous yet.

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:26AM

Hi,

This simply isn't true. There are many things that I want to believe, but I can't will myself into believing them, such as: It's 80 degrees outside. Well, it's not. It's ice-cold.

I believe what I believe because the beliefs that I hold represent my best understanding of facts, or of experts' best understanding of facts, insofar as I'm capable of understanding their explanations.

I don't think that anyone can will themselves into believing something which is obviously false. Maybe what's being confused is belief, hope, and desire.

Steve

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 10:39PM

I've actually been in both of these situations, so I do understand the people who can see the evidence and not be affected by it.

I used to be an LDS chat room host and I did have to deal with people who came into the room in order to challenge us. They would talk about things like the Blood Atonements, etc.

But being a TBM at the time, I came at the situation with the usual equation of X = the Church is true.

So no matter what information challenged me, "X" always had to equal "the Church is True," so there must be something wrong with the evidence.

They were misinformed. The information was nothing but lies and exaggerations. Even if something seems like credible information, Heavenly Father will explain it someday, so I'm just not going to worry about it, etc.

It was not until I was psychologically and emotionally ready to hear the truth, no matter what that truth may turn out to be, that it finally got through my thick skull.

I still believed that the evidence would show the Church to be true, but I was ready to receive the truth and that made the difference.

Before I was ready to hear it, I seemed to be impervious to the evidence. Once I was ready to hear it, it became, "Holy cow! The Church is NOT TRUE!"

It was all in my attitude at the time and in my willingness to listen.

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Posted by: closer2fine ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 01:04AM

Nice explanation...... I can see that in my situation as well.

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Posted by: Alpiner ( )
Date: October 25, 2013 11:24PM

It's because religion fulfills a largely emotional desire, not an intellectual one.

Ask the folks here who managed to remain Christian of some flavor here. They're emotionally invested -- the LDS religion was not suiting their emotional needs, so they went somewhere that would.

Likewise, if leaving the LDS church would not satisfy your emotional needs, you'll find a reason to stay.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 01:11AM

TSCC has earned 1 A+, it's in "innoculation".

How they hooked into the same mentality that allowed Hitler to take over, persuaded Christians to go on Crusades, led DIRECTLY to the MMM...

coincidence? I DON'T THINK SO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 02:20AM by guynoirprivateeye.

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Posted by: whitethunder ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 01:41AM

The church employs some very powerful psychology to keep members believing. If you tell yourself that something is true repeatedly, even if it's something that harms you or you wouldn't normally care for, you will believe it. And since most Mormons didn't choose their religion and were taught this way of thinking from birth, they "know" the church is true.

The church didn't figure this out by assembling a team of psychologists, though. The church is a product of natural selection. The sects that tried things that didn't work fell by the wayside. The doctrines and practices the early church used that didn't work were left behind for that reason. And the powerful principles of psychology that worked to keep the members in were further emphasized, resulting in a very manipulative church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 01:42AM by whitethunder.

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Posted by: gracewarrior ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:02AM

+1

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Posted by: mindog ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 01:44AM

For me, at least, some of what I learned from "anti" sources in the past were beyond my experience and what I was taught. In addition to that, there were odious lies to some of them. So I took that and applied it to my dissonance in other areas to relieve the pressure, that the other more reasonable, plausible and verifiable arguments were similarly fashioned. After a while, I just stopped looking, because I felt I had found enough to deal with the contradictions I knew of. It was only relatively recently that I could open up myself to asking the question, "could it be false?" and under what conditions would that be demonstrable? Being open to that question opened the floodgate.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 01:54AM

Here is my two cents on the subject. I think to be able to face the truth about Mormonism, three elements need to be there. Otherwise, nothing will combat the brainwashing. Nothing.

1) Whatever emotional need membership in the church is filling needs to be obliterated. For example, I was so hung up on the idea of happy Mormon families I never would have listened. Until the day came when I realized that following Mormon teachings would never, ever get me the happy Mormon family they promised. Honestly, for me that was the worst part of leaving Mormonism - having that emotional blankie ripped out of my arms. Later, when I got yelled at, shunned and dumped by false friends ... that was NOTHING compared to the breaking of my emotional tie to the church. I didn't realize the phrase "being brought to your knees" was so literal prior to this.

2) The person has to be able to visualize a successful life outside the church. They have to know good, upstanding non-LDS people well enough to see how they live and realize they can have that for themselves OR they just need to be intelligent enough to visualize that clearly. I think one hang up DH has is that he can't imagine a happy, non-LDS life. Even though he's lived in different states/countries/was in the military etc., he still thought the Mormon lifestyle was superior. Now that I'm showing him a better one, he's so much happier.

3) The person has to have a sense of integrity that is stronger than their fear and stronger than their selfishness. Because Mormonism plays on fear and pride like a violin prodigy plays their instrument. Someone has to love truth enough to face the risks facing the truth would entail.

If one of these elements isn't in place, it's hard - maybe even impossible to leave. The biggest one, IMO, is the first one - emotional ties. But you can hang yourself up on any of them to the point where you are too blind to see reality, no matter how clearly you are presented with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 01:55AM by CA girl.

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Posted by: whitethunder ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 09:46AM

Excellent point about having a new community. When the safety net is already there, the fall from Mormonism is so much less painful.

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Posted by: forestpal ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 05:11AM

I used to think that if one thing did not go according to "the plan", in your life, your entire testimony would crumble. I have observed that happening many times. My temple husband beat me, and I got divorced. That led me to investigate the politics of why my wife-beater ex could get remarried in the temple immediately, without notifying me, yet I was never, never allowed to get married in the temple to my TBM husband--and so on and so forth. My TBM husband left because of that. A friend of mine never got married. There was no place for her in the church. A friend had to leave his mission early, to have intestinal surgery. Another friend could not have children. Another friend found out her son is gay, and the whole family resigned because of the gay issue. The MOrmon priesthood leaders abused my sons. The bishop's son tried to molest my little girl. All of us left. But before we left, we found out about the lies. So many of us left in anger!

Mormons seem to be an unsympathetic lot, and the "glitch" has to happen to them. Hearing about the problems and abuse that others suffer in the Mormon cult doesn't phase them. They can deny all that--until it happens to them. Maybe that has to happen to open their mind to all those facts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 05:13AM by forestpal.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:55AM


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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 08:07AM

They don't care as much about doctrine or evidence.

Expecting them to change churches based on empirical observations and study would be like asking them to use such a criteria for choosing between chocolate or cherry pie.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 09:27AM

Oh, that is so true, forestpal. Great points everyone.

Having my eyes opened after getting a job with the Church sent me on the path out. Then Prop 8 had me searching for answers. I was then ready to learn the truth.

But my friends who are still ultra-TBM have had only positive experiences, which have only solidified their testimonies.

Something definitely needs to happen to prepare you to hear the truth. For a friend of mine, it was having paid a perfect tithing her entire life, only to be told, "No," the one time she asked for a little Church assistance.

She'd served a mission and done everything she'd ever been asked to do, but when she needed help, they turned her down. She was so shocked that she walked out, having been super-TBM before that.

Sometimes it's just something really subtle, like having discovered something you never knew, which throws you off-balance, like the multiple First Vision versions. That can make you want to learn more.

I think it's always something though, even if you're not aware of what triggered it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 09:28AM by Greyfort.

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Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 09:35AM

When the facts completely contradict your feelings -- "Houston, we have a problem".

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Posted by: gracewarrior ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:14AM

Humans are not rational in all respects. Evolution gave humans a strong need of survival. I think Mormonism fulfills that primitive need that the human-animal needs for survival.

1) Humans are safer in communities and groups. Mormonism plays the role of a tribe for people. In today's modern society, small communities are becoming less common.

2) Humans have social needs. This aspect cannot be underestimated. TSCC is a social club and gives people a feeling of belonging. People are able to interact with others through the framework of Mormonism.

3) The Human Ego. Mormonism gives people a sense of importance. They even give people grandiose titles that make them feel special. This is important for people who feel very small in everyday life.

It is my opinion that people don't usually leave Mormonism based on the evidence alone. There has to be some other psychological/ emotional trauma that spawns the desire to leave. In essence, staying in Mormonism becomes more painful than leaving it. I knew about the evidence for many years before I fully left Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2013 10:15AM by gracewarrior.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:35AM

I left over life experience. Sure, I didn't know all the facts, but would it have made a difference? I actually doubt it. I was in it for the happy family, too--forever family. My family fell apart and it all started out because of counsel from the lds leaders. My life was pretty much a disaster. I took a break from mormonism and it all fell apart in ONE DAY. It took years to get there, but then I was busy raising my kids and working 2 jobs, trying to keep the disaster from consuming us.

I had already determined I no longer believed when my exmo therapist sent me HERE to deal with not wearing garments.

I really doubt anything else could have gotten me out--but to have proven to myself it didn't work.

I just happened to be one of the last ones out in my family. But my daughter went back to being a TBM and she KNOWS the facts. She needs it--it seems to help her deal with life. She is extremely successful, so I let her be.

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Posted by: RPackham ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:51AM

I have often said (a variation on the proverb about leading a horse to water):

"You can lead a Saint to knowledge, but you can't make him think."

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 10:59AM

That's a good one. I heard a similar saying: I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: October 26, 2013 11:04AM

LOL Those are good.

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