In his talk on Saturday morning he admitted it in a sly way and they are quietly laying the groundwork to come back on later. The seed has been planted and now they can say they were forth coming and honest about it.

And that is what happens when they join with us—they have many opportunities to transform their talents, compassion, and time into good works. Because we have no paid local clergy in our worldwide congregations, our members perform the work of ministry themselves. They are called by inspiration. Sometimes we volunteer; sometimes we are “volunteered.” We see assignments not as burdens but as opportunities to fulfill covenants we gladly make to serve God and His children.

WE HAVE NO PAID LOCAL CLERGY. Right there. Sneaky bastards.

Yes. Noticed that and then it slipped my mind. He's a Sly "Gray Fox".

Whoa! Sneaky! I read your quote and skimmed right past the key term local. Now that's out, I wish folks would demand more transparency into finances!

They have to open the books eventually. The members will learn all the dirty little secrets like the land leases on the Las Vegas Strip to the casinos. People will shit when they learn what city creek actually cost to build and run.

What is this about land leases in the Vegas strip? Do you have more on it? This could be great info to share...

dasboot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They have to open the books eventually. The
> members will learn all the dirty little secrets
> like the land leases on the Las Vegas Strip to the
> casinos. People will @#$%& when they learn what
> city creek actually cost to build and run.


Not sure how long "eventually" is, but I'm seeing among TBMs fierce defense of the lack of transparency. It's illogical, it's indefensible, and it's stupid, but there it is.

I think what is more likely is someone on the inside will spill the beans, but I think even that is a remote possibility.

Remember that time Jesus organized the "primitive" church, the one Joseph Smith restored? Remember that time Jesus told Peter, Andrew, James, and John that he would make them fishers of men?

They left their nets, their boat, their father straightaway.

Then Peter said, "We'll be getting a stipend, right? I mean, you're not going to send us out without purse or scrip, right?"

And Christ did answer, "Verily verily, your local Roman reps will get paid a little more than you, but surely your Father won't leave you hangin'. Just don't sell any tokens I give you for money."

"Let's go then," Peter chuckled sheepishly.

John nudged Peter, "Have you seen what this guy does with water at weddings? I figure we'll at least get a sweet book deal out of this!"

This is the first I've ever heard of this.

Omg, I hope it is true........

Back in the 80s my dad was a developer and worked in Vegas. He did work for Steve Wynn and Steve's main guy and my dad had a discussion about having to go to SLC to pay for the land leases for to them to build the mirage and treasure island. Also to acquire the land that the bellago and the lake is built on. It's all church owned land and on 99 year land lease agreements to be paid annually.

Sneaky bast'ds! Of course they pick the most likable of the apostles to slide it in there.

It seems to me that it's obvious that there are paid leaders. Most members know that, I think.
I don't know how they could miss it.

Of course they are paid. I asked that question when I first joined...is my tithing going to pay for them. The missionary told me that they are all paid from the profits made from the companies that are LDS owned.

It's a big mystery how much they actually get out of being a GA. It seems that they get a stipend from the church, they get a salary for being on the board of a for-profit entity, they sell books (that they probably have help writing), their children get jobs with the church, free tuition at BYU. There is more monetary incentives then just their stipend. The beef is that member run around saying no paid clergy when there is a bureaucracy in Utah that employees a lot of people that are in fact considered clergy and are paid. It's a lie due to members' ignorance, just like most of the other things they believe.

I was born a Mormon in 1968 and baptized at 8 and I have always known. It has never been a secret. I was taught in primary that tithing helps build the church and that includes paying the prophet and apostles.

The church has never lied about this and never hidden it from anyone.


The big question is how much?

And the bigger problem is ,that they live lives of luxury and privilege on the backs of people who can barely make their monthly commitments every month.

Did you never hear the phrase "We have no paid clergy" from members? This is regularly said of the members I associate with. They still say it after I have told them that the GAs are paid and they are clergy.

It has always been understood that that term is talking about ward and stake level leaders. If you did not know that ,you have been living under a rock or you were never a member.

You can walk into any ward building and ask literally any one if they know that GAs get paid and they will tell you "yes".

I guess I missed the memo. I was born a Mormon in 1969 and was raised in Eastern and Western Idaho (mostly the latter). I was very active in the Church (EQ President), and studied my way out of the Church in 2002 after deciding to double-check when I told my non-LDS co-worker that NONE of our leadership are paid.

The reason for the confusion is obvious. Did anyone else notice how Ucthdorf very subtly transitioned from "we" to "they" and then back to "we"?


From the quote above (caps emphasis mine):

"Because WE have no paid local clergy in our worldwide congregations, our members perform the work of ministry themselves. THEY are called by inspiration. Sometimes WE volunteer; sometimes WE are “volunteered.” WE see assignments not as burdens but as opportunities to fulfill covenants WE gladly make to serve God and His children."

I was even taught this lie in seminary. When studying the BoM, there are several references to leaders laboring for their own support (see below). When these would come up, the instructor and fellow students would always boast about how the leaders of the Church are NOT paid, so their motives are certainly pure and they would never have incentive to mislead us.


Alma 30:32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God unto my people.

Mosiah 2:14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day. *** That's right, even king/prophet Benjamin was unpaid!!! ***

Mosiah 18:24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support.

Mosiah 27:5 Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.

Just reading some of the comments on the NYTimes Hans Mattsson article where the commentor would write it was silly Hans Mattsson didn't know about JS polygamy, that they had always known, or learned when they were at BYU, or something to that effect. Just because one is unaware of a teaching of the church, doesn't mean it was taught worldwide in the church. The leaders are very deceptive. One needs to go no further than the current RS/PH lessons about the prophets lives. Polygamy is off the table. Teachers are cautioned to avoid the topic in the preface. So the fact that there are some who know that the top tier are paid doesn't mean that it is widely known. I served as a missionary in the 1970s and only knew that the top 15 received some sort of financial renumeration--but not the extent that has been disclosed by Steve Benson's posts.

Good points.

I understood that the top GAs were paid, that BY was a polygamous, but didn't know that JS was a polygamist until I started studying church history as an adult. The TSCC: it's history, policies, and doctrine are a mass of confusion, lies and myths. It's no wonder the members are misinformed, that and the fact that most are cafeteria mormons, while claiming they are "true" believers.

Then they should clarify the way that Ucthdorf did. I have debated many TBMs that seem convinced that there is no evidence that the GAs are paid. I didn't know as a member, left at 27, a few months ago BIC. I must have been under a rock.

Lack of financial transparency is just another lie (by omission) the church sells its members and converts. There's something seriously wrong when a church requires its members to pay an honest tithe, but is not honest about how that money is spent.

I am the neighbor to a former GA's child..

I could go on and on about the amount of money this guy spent on

his offspring and ammenities. I would see him and his 'not enough

room to recieve it' blessings and the hero worship to him and

his kid.Anyone who thinks they are not paid and paid well is

lying to themselves.

yes, I noticed it LOL

I think most tbm don't know they are paid. GAs keep quiet on personal things, and it never comes up in the church.

I would say that most members in the UK (95%+) believe the 15 are definitely not paid and that Jesus appears to them for a regular celestial chit chat in the SL Temple.