I have been taking the discussions, but a friend told me to get on here first and ask questions.

Ask questions here and you will get answers. But in the end you need to think for yourself and make your own decisions.

nice thank you for you help. is there anyone specifically I can talk too

they had me pray and I did feel good about it, is that normal?

Yes, that's normal. When I was a mormon I felt good after praying too. However, I now believe the feeling I got wasn't actually due to praying. It was kind of like a placebo effect, if you get what I mean. I felt good because I wanted to, because I felt I was supposed to feel good praying. I told myself I had to get that feeling, so I did.

yeah they already asked me after 2 visits, I said I would think about it

The missionaries want you to make decisions based on your emotions, not reality. Praying is not a good way to determine truth. You can feel like the Book of Mormon is true, but those feelings, no matter how strong, are not backed up by reality. No credible historian or archaeologist believes the BoM to be true. Joseph Smith, the inventor of Mormonism, knew how to deceive people to get them to believe him. He was a con man.

Emotions are powerful. The missionaries are using the same tactics that Smith used many years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2013 11:24PM by canadianfriend.

Don't just trust your feelings, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 reads, "Test all things; hold fast to that which is good." This means that if something doesn't make sense to you, then it doesn't pass the test, even if you feel good about it. A good comparison would be, say you're dating someone and you really like them and you feel good about them. This happens when two people first start dating. But, as they learn more and more about each other, there are things that start to bother them about each other. Hopefully, none of these are deal breakers and it will still work out. Sometimes, unfortunately, they are deal breakers.
I was an LDS missionary at one time and we tried to get people to commit to baptism on the 2nd discussion. Don't let them push you into baptism until you've really investigated the LDS church. There is a lot they're not going to tell you about the church. Look up Shawn McCraney - Heart of The Matter on YouTube and watch some of his videos on Mormonism for a Chrisitan perspective on Mormonism.

What's your first question?

Post your questions in this thread, and people will answer, there are many very well informed people on here that can help.

That's great. Feel free to ask any questions. :)

I think it's good that you want to hear both sides of the story. I would advise you not to join the church, but it's your decision at the end of the day. At the very least don't get baptized unless you're 100% certain you want to. The missionaries tend to rush people and guilt-trip them into getting baptized, sometimes after just a couple of discussions, but make sure to say "no" to them if they do that and you haven't made your decision yet.

if anyone has yahoo chat and would like to talk there, I would be ok with that

Welcome to the board. If you don't mind answering, what appeals to you about the LDS Church? How did you meet the missionaries?

There are a lot of people here--men and women--who served missions and can give you insights into methods the missionaries are likely using on you (and all investigators) to get you to commit to baptism.

I would suggest that you set a minimum timeline for investigation--at least 6 months--and don't allow the missionaries to pressure you into baptism before that date. Anything that demands the kind of commitment the LDS Church requires deserves at least 6 months of study.

When a salesperson--even a religious one--exhibits the pushy, needy, desperation the missionaries exhibit when pressuring you to commit to baptism after only the first discussion, it is a huge red flag.

Stacey,
The following link (on this site) provides some good information to those investigating the church:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

Keep in mind, there is a lot of facts about the church that the missionaries either won't tell you or don't even know themselves.

hangar18 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stacey,
> The following link (on this site) provides some
> good information to those investigating the
> church:
>
> http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
>
> Keep in mind, there is a lot of facts about the
> church that the missionaries either won't tell you
> or don't even know themselves.

That's pretty good info at that link. I'd like to comment, though, on the part in that link that says the church teaches the following:

* The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").

Yes, that is commonly taught by the church. But in Brigham's day a common teaching was: Adam is Jesus' father, Jehovah is Adam's father, and Elohim is Jehovah's father. Thus, four different generations of Gods, via four different men (i.e., "God was once a man like us"). And Jesus and Jehovah are two different individuals (Jehovah is Jesus' grand-father). And in this teaching, Adam is the God of this earth.

I realize that this is covered somewhat in the link where it talks of the Adam-God theory, but I don't see where it talks specifically of the four generations of Gods that Brigham taught (Jesus, Adam, Jehovah, Elohim).

Nevin Pratt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2013 12:55AM by nevinpratt.

The best thing about the church is the people. That might be a reason to join. If you want a balance and objective view of Mormonism check out mormonthink.com. I was born an atheist but was indoctrnated into this church by my parents. After 50 years of mormonism I have returned to being an atheist. Understanding the truth of Mormonism will take some time...do not be pressured...take your sweet time...right now you are in control...do not relinquish it.

I think that the Mormon people are the biggest of disappointments. They are shallow and silly, and blindly following a leader into a sinkhole is hardly a virtue. If Mormons are your friends, it is most often because they were assigned to become such; Mormons are so over-worked in their daily church lives, and over-wrought in so many other ways, who had time to be your friend?

Any Christian church, if one is so inclined as to believe, is as good as the next. Most Christian churches, especially the mainstream ones like Methodists, Presbyterians, and Baptists, have professional men and women as pastors. I mean that in a good sense--professionals. They have credentials that can really be helpful when it comes to guidance and counseling. Mormons got nothing. Your bishop may be a used car salesman with the presumption that he can advise his flock in any area. And due to the waning membership, the church is having to rely more and more on marginally or non-qualified, arrogant men to take over leadership positions, a phenomenon that is leading to a lot of abuse by minor leaders such as bishops.

Run. Run away from the missionaries. You owe them nothing because they are charting a course to deceive you and suck you into a cult. It is probably a sure thing that they don't even know that and aren't even aware themselves. They know nothing about the church that they teach. They are 18 year-olds that are trained in sales.

//put comment in the wrong place//



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2013 07:19AM by cludgie.

Hi and welcome. The problem with the prayer question is that a Catholic can feel good praying. Someone Jewish can feel good praying. A Muslim, a Buddhist, etc. Mormons don't have a monopoly on feeling good.

They do tend to rely on feelings too much and feelings can be a poor judge of the truth of a thing.

+1

If praying makes you feel good, then maybe you should do it more often. Greyfort is correct in that people in many different faiths and denominations find fulfillment in prayer. The central problem with Mormonism though is investigators like you are never given the whole story up front. You may think it's as simple as giving up coffee, tea and alcohol and wearing temple garments next to your skin. Temple marriage may sound appealing, even beautiful. The reality is much different.

Poster summer gave you some great sources for information, and I'll repost the key one: http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
and add this: http://www.exmormon.org/journey/journey_g.htm Please pay particular note of the paragraph on the denial of the priesthood to blacks until 1978. The undertone of racism is still very much a part of the lds. This goes into the BOM story itself.

Welcome, Stacy. Please read the following sites:

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

http://mormonthink.com/

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Also, keep reading this message board. Make a commitment to yourself not to be baptized anytime soon. The LDS church isn't going anywhere. Why the rush from the missionaries? Take your time and learn. What you find out will be eye-opening.

The next time you meet with the missionaries, have YouTube ready. Watch with them the six-minute video "Brother Jake explains the Book of Abraham." Ask them to explain it.

And before they come, watch the 57-minute video "The Lost Book of Abraham."


Mormonism is a cruel hoax. Nothing illustrates that more than the fake Mormon scripture the Book of Abraham.

Right now you are being love-bombed ( flattered, courted) by Mormons because they want something from you.
Don't let anyone hustle you into a quick baptism - take time to learn about the pros and cons.

Did they tell you that you are expected to pay 10% of your gross income to the church every month?

Did they tell you that you are expected to spend most of your time giving free service to Mormonism?

How do you feel about giving unquestioning obedience to Mormon leaders?

Did they tell you that you are expected to wear Mormon underwear day and night?

These and many other problems will surface the minute you give them what they want and get baptized.

Think twice before getting involved with Mormonism, once they have your name on their books it will never be eradicated.

Why did you decide to take the discussions?
What appealed to you about mormonism?
are you dating a mormon?

If you are investigatin the LDS church, the FIRST thing you need to do is read,

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm

You are being manipulated and pressured into joining the LDS church by trained "salesman." They are brainwashed followers and are NOT telling you everything you need to know to make an informed decision about the religion. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW THE FACTS!

Keep studying up on the religion by BOTH SIDES. THEY will tell you "Satan" is tricking you into visiting websites like this and that you can't "trust" the so called called "anti-Mormon" internet, however we know more about the LDS church than the missionaries do. WE USED TO BE MISSIONARIES OURSELVES!

BTW the they are what is called "lovebombing" you. They get converts this way. They make you feel loved and appreciated. They make you feel like you have a new family and shower you with attention. THIS WILL EVENTUALLY END. The missionaries will soon move on and the "ward" will be your new home and once you get brainwashed and assimilated into Mormonism, you will become a SERVANT to the church. The lovebombing will end and you will expected to tow the line, or else.

Good luck and don't let them pressure you into baptism.

Hello stacyellsworth,

I was raised in Mormonism (toddler to age 28) and was a missionary in 1984/5. I left after reading in 1992 a non-fiction book (pub. in 1988) written by two American lawyers entitled "The Mormon Murders: A True Story of Greed, Forgery, Deceit, and Death." Here's what Publishers Weekly said about the book:

"As part of a scathing depiction of a deceitful, materialistic Mormon Church, lawyers Naifeh and Smith (co-editors of the biennial directory The Best Lawyers in America , etc.) point out that the 1985 Salt Lake City scandals and bombings that convulsed the community had a precedent in certain dubious practices of the church's prophet and founder Joseph Smith. The suspenseful plot, involving a series of murders and a large cast of Mormons and police investigators, centers on the purchase and suppression by church officials of authentic and forged documents that cast doubts on basic tenets of their faith and attested to the cover-up of Smith's unsavory past. Under the threat of blackmail, the church bought many of these documents from the dealer-bomber Mark Hofmann; according to the authors, Hoffmann, after confessing the murders and forgeries, was allowed, thanks to the church's political influence, to plea bargain the murder indictment into a manslaughter charge thereby sparing the church an embarrassing trial that could have revealed its complicity." (Ref. http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Murders-Onyx-Steven-Naifeh/dp/0451401522)

The info. presented in "The Mormon Murders" destroyed my 'faith' in Mormonism (the product of years of LDS indoctrination and psychological conditioning, actually). Why? Because it revealed the unique relationship between forger/murderer-to-be Hofmann and LDS "prophets" and other General Authorities. The investigative book also disclosed many disturbing historical facts about Joseph Smith (JS) and early Latter-day Saint history that the Mormon Church had never revealed to me or millions of other members.

Here are some examples:

Joseph Smith used his hat and a rock that he believed possessed supernatural power to 'translate' the Book of Mormon. You won't hear this from the missionaries (they're very likely ignorant about many strange and troubling aspects of early Mormon history).

Now, here is what LDS apostle Russell Nelson told new mission president in June 1992, according to the LDS Church's Ensign magazine for adult members:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (Ref. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng)

And here is what the LDS Church's Friend magazine for children said in Sept. 1974 (I was 10):

"Joseph [Smith] also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.

"Martin Harris said that on the seer stone 'sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say "written;" and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.'”

(Ref. http://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng)

You won't hear from the missionaries or LDS Church leaders or teachers about JS' hat and supposedly magical "egg-shaped, brown rock for translating", that's for sure!

You also won't learn from them that Joseph Smith became a sexual predator and targeted other men's wives, single women, and girls as young as 14 to make them his plural wives. The full list is at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

The LDS Church has online a list of several - but not all - of JS' polygamous wives (BTW, marrying more than one woman was illegal in Ohio, Illinois, and other U.S. states where he lived). The partial list is online at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/99P4-SHN

You also won't hear from the missionaries or during LDS Church meetings about Fanny Alger. Who was she? The teenage servant girl who worked in the home of JS and his only legal wife, Emma. The genealogy record showing JS' marriage (unlawful, mind you!) to young Fanny at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV

You can read a lot of info. about the plural wives of JS, who committed adultery with several females, at http://www.utlm.org/topicalindexc.htm#JSPolygamy and http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/ There is also an informative video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTQwnLCV024

Naive, 'faithful' Mormons erroneously believe that JS didn't have sex with ANY of his plural wives. The historical truth, however, is that he did and got various females pregnant. Sarah Pratt, the wife of 19th-century LDS apostle Orson Pratt, provided a lot of info. about JS' adulterous relations during the time he was the so-called "prophet." Revelant info is online at http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,968983,969328#msg-969328

If you're interested, here's a good list of books and online videos about Mormonism: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1043878,1044876#msg-1044876

It's important to bear in mind that the info. you receive from the missionaries and LDS Church is propaganda, not the truth. Since 1830, the church has SYSTEMATICALLY misled millions of people and taught them to hand over billions of dollars to the organization.

Caroline Winter, a reporter with Businessweek magazine, did an indepth news article last year about the Mormon Church and its multi-billion-dollar money-making empire (to enrich itself, not Latter-day Saints!). Caroline's informative, 7-page piece begins at http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-10/how-the-mormons-make-money#p1

Want to learn about simulated violence and naked touching in LDS temple ceremonies (as a 'brainwashed' young Mormon in 1983, I can vouch both happened)? Read Chapter 22 of "The Changing World of Mormonism" by Sandra and Jerald Tanner (Mormon history experts) at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm In fact, the entire book is worth reading, IMO.

Concerning the emotions that you've experienced when you prayed with Mormon missionaries, bear this important reality in mind: "When we live consciously we do not imagine that our feelings are an infallible guide to truth.” Who said that? Dr. Nathaniel Branden, a psychotherapist in California who pioneered the study of self-esteem decades ago.

Dr. Branden wrote in his best-selling book, "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem", that "living consciously is living responsibly toward reality. We do not necessarily have to like what we see, but we recognize that that which is, is, and that which is not, is not."

Mormonism is not about reality; it's about illusion. It's about a lot of misguided-yet-generally-friendly people being ignorant about JS and Mormon history and mentally regurgitating what the LDS Church has taught them, which includes a lot of nonsense.

Crucially, Joseph Smith wasn't a "prophet", as he led people to believe. He was court-convicted fraudster who created the Latter-day Saint religion and then abused his ecclesiastical power to go after dozens of Mormon females (teenagers to middle-aged women), repeatedly breaking Emma's heart in the process.

In January of last year, the news agency Reuters did a special report about the LDS Church that said:

"A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

"Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are 'leaving in droves?' a woman asked.

"'We are aware,' said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. 'And I'm speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church.'"

Jensen also disclosed that "My own daughter has come to me and said, 'Dad, why didn't you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?'"

The Reuters report also stated:

"For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged, 'Everything's out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.' The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are 'severely outdated.'" (In other words, not truthful!)

"These are tumultuous times for the faith founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, and the rumbling began even before church member Mitt Romney's presidential bid put the Latter-Day Saints in the spotlight."

"Jensen, the church's official historian, would not provide any figures on the rate of defections, but he told Reuters that attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years[.]"

(Ref. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/uk-mormonchurch-idUKTRE80T1CP20120130)

A related report by ABC News in Salt Lake City said: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years." (Ref. http://www.cw30.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx)

You have the right to learn the FULL truth about Mormonism before making a decision to participate in it, or not. There are excellent books and online videos that reveal the facts, including many that Mormons tend to ignore or trivialize.

People on this board will help you as best we can.

Cheers!

The missionaries are salesmen and closing the sale means baptism. I wouldn't do it. Many members who know the church very well are leaving. That tells you there are many problems with the church.

Mormons are taught to keep secret the uncomfortable and cultish parts of their church. They withhold important information that "investigators need to know but might not like.

Milk before meat means showing the best face of Mormonism until the person is dunked and more thoroughly indoctrinated. They're extra nice to everyone until they're certain they can stand to find our uncomfortable truths. I think it's deceptive to refuse to tell everything a possible new member would want to know before joining. You need to take your time and read everything you can about this church before you decide to plunge into it.

Doubt. Doubt your feelings, and doubt the missionaries. A wise Mormon leader, long since dead, said:

"Some say that the open-minded leave room for doubt. But I believe we should doubt some of the things we hear. Doubt has a place if it can stir in one an interest to go out and find the truth for one’s self. I should like to awaken in everyone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true."

That was by former Mormon apostle Hugh B. Brown, essentially discredited by Mormon leadership in his own time. He is one of several LDS leaders who said subtle things to the membership that the other leaders disapproved of. Mormon apostles do not want you to challenge origins, teachings, history, or doctrines, and do not want members to actually investigate except on the most superficial of levels. That is because the history of Mormon origins is very seedy and distasteful, so much so that the church has had to re-write a different version of it. In fact, they've even re-written the re-write. "Eternal and everlasting" LDS doctrines, said to be "essential to our salvation," are always being discarded or re-interpreted. There is a de facto savior worship of Joseph Smith over Jesus Christ. This is one of the easiest things to spot using only an anecdotal tool of paying attention during sacrament meeting and Sunday school. Mormons seldom talk about Jesus or the Atonement of Christ. They know little about it, too. Most Mormons don't know the Bible very well, and assign ridiculous interpretations to obscure Old and New Testament passages, much as would a Jehova's Witness.

It's a young religion, and most of its history is just hanging out there on the Internet. Take advantage of this. Also, you may take note of the fact that the missionaries will tell you specifically NOT to look at Internet sources. At that point, remember the Thomas Paine quote, "It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."

Keep it simple...... Use simple logic

Why would a loving heavenly father allow & command a 36 year old man marry 14 year old girls........

I (now) think of prayer as a form of meditation, and I've felt better with non-directed meditation.

as were many on this board. We were taught specific ways to get investigators baptised.

You have to get the investigator to pray and get a warm feeling in their heart--telling them that the Book of Mormon, or whatever they are praying about, is true.

Next, when they pray and feel good inside about their prayers, you commit them to plan a baptismal date. You keep visiting them, you get them to meet people in the ward, you get them involved in church activities.

It's a very well thought out trap for you. Read and study both sides of the issue. Good luck, we have been there.

It's highly suspect when someone wants you to pray if something is true when you haven't even had a chance to read and study it's contents. It's even more suspect when they want you to commit to baptism without a more comprehensive view of what their doctrines are. Someone mentioned at least 6 months of investigation and that is wise. You need to really understand what it is you're committing to. For me I was highly disappointed when I finally read the book of mormon and discovered the lack of wisdom to be found. In this day and age I don't think God would send something so confusing and oblique to guide our lives.

I investigated for many months in 2011 ( http://smorgzone.blogspot.com/2012/03/mormon-encounters-part-8-to-those.html ).

Like many here already advised, be aware that they ARE love-bombing you and don't let the missionaries pressure you into making commitments! Also, don't give them your personal info. There is no such thing as 'privacy' when it comes to missionaries. Always assume that all your info is shared with other misshies and the mission presidents. Personal correspondences included.

If you're in a gated community, don't tell them the password to get in or you'll never see the end to Mormon misshies knocking on your and your neighbors' doors long after this current pair that's 'teaching' you is gone. It wouldn't matter if you tell them 'No, and no more contact, please' at some point. The next pair of misshies always think they can do what their predecessors couldn't. And your 'No' is no match for their 'god personally commanded me to try' mind track. It is worth the trouble of having to go escort them in from the gate every time they come to visit. A bit of hassle now to ward off the string of perpetual harassment/solicitation to come.