Poor baby. :(

This is awful.

I read that too. It is sad and disgusting beyond words. The problem with the practices that led to this, though, isn't as much religion as it is poverty and ignorance. Religion is the enabler, but not the instigator.

I get what you are saying...

Every country with abject poverty would sell off their young daughters, if only their religion would allow it.

Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

Wow. I had forgotten how quickly people here, under the cover of anonymity, will turn to insults to make a point and yet never make their point. Jacob, thanks for the reminder of why I usually stick to Facebook forums for discussing Mormonism.

Addressing your "argument," first, I didn't say that every impoverished nation would do that if their religion permitted it. I stated that religion was an enabler and not an instigator. To clarify slightly I should note that it is the cultural practices surrounding the religion, not necessarily the religion itself. You gave no explanation of why that sounds stupid.

Second, did you read the article? It blamed poverty for the practice. I went a step further to state that ignorance was part of it. But lack of education and poverty go hand in hand so perhaps my addition was redundant, but I thought it was relevant.

If you take issue with my statement, please show me an example of child brides being married off in modern times (within the last 20 years) where the family was middle class (or wealthier) and educated. I can give you examples of extremely young child brides from impoverished families that aren't Muslim if you want.

However you respond, why don't you try to use rhetoric that is a little less nasty and back up your argument with an explanation of why you feel it's valid?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 08:22PM by joesmithsleftteste.

I wouldn't waste a minute of my time to read such nonsense.

Alright, Cheryl, find me an example of this happening in a middle class or wealthier, educated family. It needs to have happened in the last 20 years.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 08:55PM by joesmithsleftteste.

Go to a college library and check out a psych text which includes case studies of these kinds of maniacs.

Telling me to go read something without offering any sort of a source is worthless as support for your beliefs. I could just as easily say "go read anything in a college library on child marriage and you'll find that it only happens in cultures surrounding the Mediterranean." That doesn't make it true (because it's not) nor does it help you verify my claim.

Are you intending to say that poverty doesn't affect pedophiles? If so, that is absolutely true. However, the poverty absolutely plays a role in the parents' decision to marry the child off at that age. So does ignorance. If there are no financial needs, then the financial incentive to marry her off so young is eliminated. If they are educated about the dangers of marrying off their daughter so young, that informs them that selling her for marriage could result in serious harm to their daughter. Put the two together, and you know why child marriages like that don't happen in wealthy (or even not impoverished), educated families.

As I said, you can't get rid of the pedophiles. But you can prevent girls from being willingly betrayed to them by their own families.

If that doesn't address what you're arguing, I really don't understand where you're coming from and could use some articulate elaboration.

joesmithsleftteste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow. I had forgotten how quickly people here,
> under the cover of anonymity, will turn to insults
> to make a point and yet never make their point.
> Jacob, thanks for the reminder of why I usually
> stick to Facebook forums for discussing
> Mormonism.
>


If you wish to find out who I am just click on my (board) name. I insulted your comment not you. Facebook is fun as well, just different.


> Addressing your "argument," first, I didn't say
> that every impoverished nation would do that if
> their religion permitted it. I stated that
> religion was an enabler and not an instigator. To
> clarify slightly I should note that it is the
> cultural practices surrounding the religion, not
> necessarily the religion itself. You gave no
> explanation of why that sounds stupid.
>

Well, if that were my argument you might be right but my argument was that it is stupid to dismiss a primary reason for the rape and murder of a little girl.

> Second, did you read the article? It blamed
> poverty for the practice. I went a step further to
> state that ignorance was part of it. But lack of
> education and poverty go hand in hand so perhaps
> my addition was redundant, but I thought it was
> relevant.

I might be going out on a limb here but I do that fairly often so I'm comfortable with being on a ledge.

The story is purposely avoiding the elephant in the room by bringing up another contributing factor. I find their avoidance to be irresponsible and cowardly.

>
> If you take issue with my statement, please show
> me an example of child brides being married off in
> modern times (within the last 20 years) where the
> family was middle class (or wealthier) and
> educated. I can give you examples of extremely
> young child brides from impoverished families that
> aren't Muslim if you want.

Once again my argument is that your statement was stupid.

>
> However you respond, why don't you try to use
> rhetoric that is a little less nasty and back up
> your argument with an explanation of why you feel
> it's valid?

Whatever

Perhaps they naysayers should read the article

Shall I quote myself?

"The story is purposely avoiding the elephant in the room by bringing up another contributing factor. I find their avoidance to be irresponsible and cowardly."

And I disagree.

Clearly.

I didn't say it was a primary reason for this instance. I said that the problems leading to the practice were ignorance and poverty. Read my last note to Cheryl for my reasons for saying it.

I'd appreciate a response that is more than simple, condescending contradiction, as your other responses have been so far.

Impoverished parents allow their daughters to marry young because they save money in two ways. they receive a bride price for the girl and they do not have to support her. Contrary to what some posters believe,religion is not to blame for everything

I agree. Look at all of the child prostitutes & child brides in south-east Asia. That situation has everything to do with poverty.

The perbs' motivations don't count for squat.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I didn't discuss motivations, only problems that are leading to the practice. I was pointing that out as a way of saying, "we need to worry about poverty and ignorance as well as religion if we are going to prevent things like this from happening." Perhaps I should have made my point a little more obvious, but I said nothing that should have been taken at all as defense of anyone.

If it did, this kind of murder would be much more commonplace.

As I said above, if you feel that this sort of thing doesn't happen at least in part because of poverty or ignorance, find me a middle class or wealthier, educated family that has sold their daughter for marriage like this. It has to have happened in the last 20 years.

If you really feel that this couldn't be prevented by eliminating poverty and educating people, why don't you explain why you feel that way? What happened was horrible and I hope both the family and the "husband" are held fully accountable, but even the article we're discussing stated that poverty contributes to the practice that led to this horrifying event. If you disagree with the article, show me evidence. Don't just contradict me without backing up anything you say. It's possible that I am wrong and that child weddings like this do happen in places that are educated aren't impoverished. However, I haven't heard of it so if you have, please let me know. I have, however, heard of child brides in cultures that aren't Muslim. So have you.

Does child murder and torture occur in other situations? Yes, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss the specifics that caused it here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 09:03PM by joesmithsleftteste.

I edited my above statement. However, the subject was not child sexual torture and murder when I started discussing it, so don't change the subject and then hold it against me when I continue discussing the subject that I intended to discuss in the post that you responded to.

"Religion is the enabler, but not the instigator."

In this case, you are totally, completely, absolutely wrong.

Islamic Literature contradicts you.

Mohammed's six-year-old bride:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

Things like this have got to stop. I remember reading an article not long ago about child brides in Yemen but it said many of them were not consummated until the girls were much older. Looks like TSCC isn't the only ones to lie their guts out about that.

Poor little darling. It is unthinkable how she must have suffered. I agree with joesmithsleftteste, it is poverty and total ignorance over centuries that have caused this. Religion does play a part, but only as the catalyst. Hopefully international outrage will help to stamp out such practices, and that the problem of poverty and ignorance can be addressed. How long has the world, and little girls like this one, waited for such change?

Eight years old would be about third grade in the U.S. When I taught third grade, half the class still believed in Santa Claus (generally, it's the last year that kids do so.) It's the last year of true childlike innocence.

That poor, sweet girl deserved better than what she got. She deserved care and kindness and protection. The adults in her life (ranging from government officials in Yemen to the lecher who "married" her) truly let her down.

This specific incident isn't verified yet: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/yemengirl.asp

It does sound more like a coverup, especially since female deaths are not recorded in several Middle Eastern countries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2013 08:12PM by Itzpapalotl.

Too horrible to contemplate. Torture and murder is what it is.

It is true that wealthier Muslims rarely marry their daughters of at such a young age, though it has happened in very recent years in Saudi Arabia with middle-class families (Google the case of the Saudi mom who bravely went to court in SA a few years ago to try to stop her underage daughter's marriage to a far older man).

It is also true that there are cases of child brides whose families are not Muslim. *However,* Islam plays a key role in preventing this practice from changing in predominantly Muslim societies. In Yemen, for example, feminists and secularists have been trying, in vain, for years to raise the legal age of marriage for girls. What prevents their success, ultimately, is Islam. Why?

The founder of Islam, Muhammed, married his favorite wife, Aisha, when she was nine and he was in his late 50s. Muhammed is revered in Islam as the Perfect Man. No criticism of him whatsoever can be allowed. Anything that he allowed, or did himself, although it was in 7th-century Arabia, is deemed correct for all time.

Even Robert Spencer, a renowned scholar of Islam who is frequently highly critical of Islam, and of Muhammed, has said that the main problem with Muhammed having had a child bride is not that it was wrong at that time. Spencer is actually reluctant to conclude Muhammed was a pedophile, given the culture he existed in. Rather, Spencer has said that the problem with Muhammed marrying Aisha is that, due to the "Perfect Man" syndrome, no Muslim government can ever condemn or abolish a practice which most people today find abhorrent and agree is child rape and exploitation.

Similarly, Saudi Arabia did not officially abolish chattel slavery--slaves being sold in open-air slave markets--until the 1960s, and then did this only under massive world pressure. Why? Because Muhamed owned slaves. The government of Somalia allows widespread chattel slavery even today for the same reason. (Christians, Animists, and sometimes even Muslims who are dark-skinned Africans as opposed to "Arab" Somalians are frequently kidnapped and sold into slavery.)

In other words, poverty may be the impetus for most cases of young girls being forced into rape--I mean, uh, marriages--but it is definitely religion which continues to be used as justification for this vile practice and which continues to prevent its abolishment in parts of the Muslim world.

Good points by Nevermo. Can only add that whenever reformists in many Muslim countries attempt to change the laws allowing underage marriage they are often defeated by the imams and clerics who hold the real power. The latter are far from impoverished and uneducated.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FChild_marriage&ei=69wzUrm1AqOziwKx2IGoCA&usg=AFQjCNEBpnydzuPXNqMHB6YfD42ICnAwRQ&sig2=Qvr-JADhoIaj50E4O2Vobg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.cGE


During most of history, child marriage was common and religion was only one of many causes. Those of you who are so fast to blame religion in general and Islam in particular should read the link above.

I think NeverMo carries the day. If it were only poverty that causes the sale of girl children, the poor would be selling off the boys right and left as well.

It is discrimination against females (of any age), which is supported by religion (in this case Islam), that perpetuates the practice. The more fundamentalist the religion, the more the women suffer. Period.

If I've said it once, I've said it once, "Fuck islam"!