I think the topic got a little sidetracked because the question did not feel right so allow me to re-introduce this topic with my own experiences thrown in.

The mission is really the first time a young person gets to experience a somewhat uncensored church life. By that I mean they get to see the inner workings of the church without an authority figure (mom or dad) soothing out the rediculous and damaging actions of church leaders. I fear I am still failing to get my point across. Bluntly, what a person sees on the mission is that there is no inspiration, no discernment, nothing even Christ-like in so many ways.

Before a mission you can keep blinders on and rely on other peoples faith and testimony. On a mission, if you have your eyes open and half a brain, the scam becomes obvious. I mean no offense to those that did not wake up during the mission, we all grow and mature at different rates.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the mission was the end for me. Leaders with no more foresight than a box of rocks (pick your own metaphor), constant action with no results.

The latest "new" program will be no different. I still can't believe the post regarding lemonade stands. Seriously?

The only good things to come from my mission were my love of and ongoing connection to Japan and the opening of my eyes that got me out of TSCC. I lurk here often to read other's stories of Japan and other people's eye opening experiences that they had while on their missions. I can sooooo relate.

It's a little hard to believe, after you've seen the naked emperor.

Funny thing, missions are probably the most damaging thing the church does to members, but they are totally convinced that the missions, along with all their psychological abuse, helps keep people in the cult.

Problem is, you have to assume that a large number of the folks who don't serve a mission, then leave the church, were probably going to leave regardless of rather they went on a mission or not. Their early unbelief was probably why they did not go.
My guess, is that the church would actually lose far fewer missionaries if they stopped sending them, which may be why they are abandoning tracking. They may hope that by making missions less horrible, they won't lose so many RMs.

...Not to mention the all-consuming 24/7 nature of a typical full-time mission, which means there is no escaping the Church, and everything that goes along with it, for 18-24 months straight. There is no going back to your normal life after the 3-hour Sunday block.

Interesting thing happens with missions.

Two opposite results: one is the cementing of the life-long true believer, and the other side of the coin; the doubter and loss of faith and belief entirely.

Since the Internet and boards such as this, we hear about the "other side of the coin" - those that leave the LDS Church completely.

I have noticed a gradual shift in each generation of missionaries going back to the 50's when my husband served from accepting the teachings especially when immersed in the familial, societal, culture, to a new kind of awakening and desire for more knowledge, which is quickly satisfied as it's so easily accessible on the Internet.

Now days, the 18 year old youngsters are bombarded by information they never heard about if they have neglected to learn what is available on line.

I predict a large number of these youngsters will be coming home early from missions for several reasons: much too immature, too ill equipped to be away from home, too little knowledge about what they are teaching, and too easily persuaded through a natural desire for factual information.

I wonder if the church foresees increased numbers of missionaries coming home early, because of doctrinal issues, so they lowered the mission age so they can blame the problem on immaturity?

Naw, I think they are making it up as they go along. Just like ole Joe.

I don't think I fit into either of these sides.

I mean, I did learn a lot of things on my mission that would later contribute to me figuring it all out, but I think I basically believed it 100% when I left and when I came back. In retrospect, things like the complete lack of discernment of the mission leaders should have been obvious, but at the time, I completely ignored it.

On the other hand, I certainly didn't learn the lesson of blind, total obedience that was constantly pounded into us missionaries. I was as lazy and disobedient as I could get away with, and I routinely ignored direct commandments from mission leaders. I probably came about as close as is possible to actually enjoy a mission.

When I came home, I still believed the Morg was true, still went to church most of the time, still read the scriptures and prayed frequently, and even went to the temple every now and then. It was only over the course of the next 3 years that the doubts started to pop up. It was 3 years after my mission that I finally took a look at the piles of junk on my shelf and the whole house of cards came down.

Yes, I hold my love of Japan too as a result of my mission, and I consider that the good thing that came out of it. Where were you? (Fukuoka late 90's for me). Love me some Yakiniku to this day.

The other thing is that it's also your first dose of church bureaucracy. The first time you see that the numbers are what matters, not the people.

squeebee Wrote:
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> The other thing is that it's also your first dose
> of church bureaucracy. The first time you see that
> the numbers are what matters, not the people.

I wanted to add my observation of what the effect of extreme push for numbers on missionaries has!
I've seen how it promotes: working the numbers, to out and out lying about the numbers, and it's acceptable as part of the game!

I was in Tokyo North in 85/86. I have actually managed to make more money out of the mission than I put into it. I am now a certified court interpreter and Japanese is somewhat rare, it let's me charge an arm and a leg for depositions.
I too love yakiniku, sukiyaki, sushi, and tandoori chicken (OK, tandori chicken is Indian but I learned to love it at Indian restaurants in Japan.)

ramonglyde Wrote:
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> I was in Tokyo North in 85/86. I have actually
> managed to make more money out of the mission than
> I put into it. I am now a certified court
> interpreter and Japanese is somewhat rare, it
> let's me charge an arm and a leg for depositions.
> I too love yakiniku, sukiyaki, sushi, and tandoori
> chicken (OK, tandori chicken is Indian but I
> learned to love it at Indian restaurants in
> Japan.)


You make a valid point about how a new language can be very beneficial - as well as an understanding of the culture!

Awesome. I get to Tokyo occasionally now for work, not really a money maker but nice to visit on someone else's dime. Found an Indian place in Ginza on my last trip and it was quite good. Funny to hear Japanese with an Indian accent. That and hearing it with a Chinese accent in Yokohama.

"Bluntly, what a person sees on the mission is that there is no inspiration, no discernment, nothing even Christ-like in so many ways."

I think this sums my experience up so precisely. I personally believe all LDS missionaries since the middle-1970s realize on their missions that the church leaders are not inspired and that there is no such thing as priesthood authority and power. Some of us face the truth and have the courage and personality type to confront the fraud. Others suppress the knowledge because they know they will lose all of the things the church culture brings... future wife, jobs, the support of their family, support of their cultural heritage. All of my companions confessed to me that they had severe issues with the Church. Two still appear to be active, but they don't hold leadership positions you might expect from their abilities and standing - I wonder if they are NOMs.

I was "iffy" on the church as a teen, but ended up going on a mission (long story, it's in my exit story should anyone care to read it).

While the decision I most regret making, the mission was definitely the beginning of the very end for me. I was totally disillusioned and disgusted. Numbers were by far more important than people; wanting to help people was one of the main factors in my going. The way female missionaries were treated was a real eye opener as well. I had issues with the morg view of women before I left, the mission just crystallized them.

It was very clear that decisions were made due to numbers, not "spiritual promptings."

I did come out with some absolutely incredible sales skills though. Those have served me well over the years, I must say.

Spwdone, how were female missionaries treated?

Sorry this is long, but, you did ask.

Of course, it varied depending on who you were dealing with. I must say, we didn't get it nearly as badly from members as we did within the mission and there were some pretty cool elders as well. Not all of them bought into it and were great people. This is about the others.

I had two MP's. The first was pretty awesome, really sweet, loving and supportive man, his wife was really cool as well. Unfortunately he was done when I was 3 mos into my mission. The next one very firmly believed that women were supposed to be guided, as in completely directed in every action, by "The Priesthood." Basically, we had no say in anything. He, of course, called APs, ZLs and DLs who were in sync with his views, or, at least, bought into it at that point. Who knows what they think now.

During any group mission meeting, the sisters were expected to provide refreshments, set everything up and clean everything up afterwards. We were not allowed to contribute anything to any meetings or workshops in a non-physical-labor way and were not even allowed to participate in discussions unless it was to ask questions or share an experience. Doctrinal discussion was for priesthood holders only.

Our MP (and his disciples in positions of power) frequently quoted scripture and GA quotes about how women needed guidance. Most of them were out of context. It was infuriating and humiliating.

I spent a lot of time during that time saying "it's the people, it's not the Gospel," to help me get through it. Yes, this was a mistake, but, I was young and stupid and trying really, really hard to be a good LDS missionary, which meant, following and supporting your priesthood leaders.

The female missionaries were also given stricter guidelines by our MP on what we could/couldn't do. We had an earlier curfew (we were NOT in a violent or dangerous area) and were very limited in the interactions we could have with our investigators before we were required to bring our DL's or ZL's in on appointments, so that we didn't screw it up.

We were not credited with the baptisms, because, after all "they were baptized by Priesthood authority." Also, the MP's wife actually told me, "they need the numbers because when they go home how they did on their mission will help them get a good job so they can support their family."

The male missionaries were allowed a certain amount of TV hours, when they could watch sporting events at a members home on PDay. Female missionaries were not allowed any.

We also had two GA's visit while I was out. Before both, all the missionaries submitted questions and concerns for the GA to address. One, was actually pretty cool - really liked him, what he said made sense and he went out of his way to interact with the sisters and treated us like actual people. His name? George P. Lee. I think we all know what happened with his LDS career.

The other who visited spent lots of time with our MP's hand-picked disciples and didn't answer or address a single question or issue submitted by a sister (I'm hesitant to put in a name because I don't want to get sued, sorry. He's now dead, though, but he has family, some of whom I know.).

He also didn't have a conversation with one of us. There were only 14 of us in the mission, but still. It was very, very obvious and we were all upset about it and made this known.


Our being upset about it caused a special "sister's conference" to be held. During this, were were instructed about what a woman's duty was to uphold and support the Priesthood, both our leaders and, in time, our husbands. Our MP told us that it was more important that future priesthood leaders got the benefit of the GA's attention and inspiration, as they were the ones who would be molding the future of the church. It wasn't because we weren't as important. Right, that was obvious.

Later in my mission, I became very ill. My MP refused to let me go to the Dr., and told me I didn't have enough faith, because females are naturally more susceptible to the influence of the adversary, who was trying to keep me from my work. Finally, when my body totally shut down and an investigator called an ambulance, I was sent home. I was diagnosed with Lyme's Disease, which is almost 100% curable if treated when first contracted. I went for 10 months without treatment and ended up with permanent physical problems because of it. If I sound a little bitter about the fact that my body has never worked quite right since, it's because I am.

I could go on, but I think that's enough for now. Hope that answers your questions.

I think people here need to confront the abusers. Several of us have posted about my mission president.

Did your parents or parents of other sister missionaries contact authorities to let them know what was going on?

Sorry you got sick. I know what that's like, as I myself have racked up health problems from my mission. I'm bitter too as my mission president told me it would ruin my life if I left my mission ill. I stayed on in a sick state that has only gotten worse over the time since my mission. Here's to younger days, youth recaptured, time regained.

The last part of your post got me, that is sooo effin' bad. So sorry you had to experience this. YOu should sue the bastard MP.

If you get up the courage, name the bastard and let's shame him publicly. After all the good book says, evil that is done in secret shall be shouted from the housetops. Find your courage and let this poor excuse of a human pay for it in heaps.

spwdone thank you for sharing. That is horrible!

When I was at then end of my mission in l971, the mission president in his final interview of course gave the pep talk about staying the course. In it he mentioned that many missionaries go inactive--said this as a warning. But the really interesting thing was he said those with the highest rate of going inactive or leaving the church were those that had become P.A.s. He quoted me a percentage which I don't remember but it was way more than 50%. I was shocked. I do not know were he got the figures but he seemed dead serious.

Looking back it makes sense. Who better than the P.A.s to see that the Mission President is flying by the seat of his pants, is not inspired, and is constantly checking his manual rather than checking with the Holy Ghost? They get a view of the inner workings that few get. They also get front row seats to G.A. visits and communications. They get to see assignments come from the head, not the bosom. It has to sink in.

Yep, I personally know two AP's who left.

Going on a mission is where I really learned to look at the foundational events of Mormonism as the proof points of the faith and set myself up in many ways fro later doubts. I also met tons of good non-LDS people that clearly were better w/o the so called truth than I'll ever be and began slowly to conclude that Mormonism was too small to answer all the questions in this big world and in life.

That said, I likely was LDS a decade longer at least because on the programming I received as a missionary. I learned to be a good worker bee and didd't let the questions I had earlier resurface for another 10 years.

I will say that going states-side I had more time to study doctrine and history because we didn't have to do language stuff. Cuz of that I probably happened upon hard issues sonner than I might have.

Hello spwdone,

I am SO sorry to hear of your mission experience at the hands of obviously IGNORANT men. How awful! I am also sorry to hear that you are still ill. I think you should send your ex mission president you ongoing medical bills, plus all back bills! To me it is SO wrong when you aren't even allowed to listen to your own body, when it tells you you are ill. Honestly what a control! No wonder you are bitter. I would be LIVID too!

I send you my love, take care!!

I'll throw my two bits in here: My mission exposed me to the fact that there are some LDS doctrines that can't be justified logically. Then, I saw a complete lack of inspiration from leaders, I saw joining the church lead a young woman to the brink of suicide, and I saw numerous zone leaders who were supposed to be inspired and chosen by God use their authority to go on mad power trips. I came home as TBM as you could be, but I was broken. As I began to recover from my mission, I began to see that there were a lot of f---ed up things in the church. It still took me years to get out of, though.

Lots of people leave the church.
Plenty had served missions.

After seeing how Elders can aspire to positions with lots of focus on numbers rather than people, i certainly saw the church in a different light. I mean before I left on the mission the missionaries that came to my house for dinner, I used to think man these guys are perfect and I wanna be just like them. I returned in 1997. The internet was still kinda new for me back then so oned day a couple of months after I returned I stumbled upon this site and lo and behold my whole thinking machine really started to question some of the doctrines, rituals of TSCC.

I think a lot of it depends on your personality, and on the culture you came from - how much pressure to conform.

I didn't leave until age 38, almost 20 years after the mission. Basically had to accumulate a lot of experiences with obvious lack of inspiration. Then alittle reading here that explained why - THERE IS NO INSPIRATION, BECAUSE IT'S ALL BS!

But anyway, looking back some of those experiences on my mission were the numbers games. One time a companion yelled at me for my lack of faith. I set a goal for the coming year of 12 baptisms, compared to 8 I had the year prior. On the other hand, he set a goal of 250!

Then there were various contacting methods based on lying or aggression. Acting like your stereotypical used car salesmen - I just couldn't picture Jesus using such tactics.

And there was a nice church on the Japan island of Hokkaido that had been shut down for years because of the bad publicity - seems some elders had an orgy with some Japanese girls.

And on and on.....

. . . Muroran.

I wonder how much of that story was true, how much made up by later missionaries.

I've seen several examples of simple acts of rebellion or attempts to discover the truth result in punishment, embarrassment, and then later embellishment by Mormons who are both horrified and secretly fascinated by the tales.

It's also interesting how many of us shared Japan missions and learned to love the country and to hate the church after delays of years or decades. For some reason it seems that there is an unusually high number of people who served in Japan who end up here.

I kinda wanted to reply to the original thread on this topic but didn't get it in on time.

What I wanted to write is what RG said in his OP above. My childhood was in decent wards and stakes in a heavily Mormon area. The bishops were generally good men, gentle and understanding, and the old people were thoughtful and experienced enough to temper the really nasty parts of Mormonism. But then I went on a mission (Japan, generally the Groberg era) and saw the ugliest, most cynical farce this side of the inquisition. Because of my childhood experiences, I gave the church the benefit of the doubt for many more years before realizing that my mission was closer to the norm than my hometown had been.

A couple of quick broader observations. First, I believe the mission experience has changed over time. One of my childhood bishops and stake presidents had been on a mission in the late 1950s, then saw my mission experience, then served as a mission president himself. After his mission he said that modern missions are not at all like the ones people in his generation went through. Apparently life for them was much freer, more self-directed, and less focused on numbers. Part of the reason, I think, that so many people on this board attribute their disaffection (partly) to their missions is because we went on them after the church had sucked the life and trust out of them.

Second, I disagree with SuzieQ#1's statement that missions leave people either 100% committed or totally alienated. For many years I tried to harmonize what I went through with my earlier understanding of the church. There are a LOT of people who do that. After the trauma of Japan in the early 1980s, there was a wave of missionaries who went to BYU and sought psychiatric counseling to deal with the cognitive dissonance. Many of those people are still active in the church; the child of one of those posted here a year or two ago saying that his/her father is a TBM but looked back on what he did in Japan with shame.

The general point, though, is the same. You can't treat people like disposable tools and then expect them to trust you afterwards. What finally drove me out of the church was a series of meetings with a bishop and a stake president who demanded that I "sustain" the brethren in Salt Lake fully, which in light of some particular things (including the Japanese mission) I could not do. They kept insisting that I had to trust the leaders so much that I would let them make decisions for me and my family. I looked at them and said, in essence, "I've been on a mission. I'm not a virgin anymore."

I can't see how the church could think that people will come back from missions, as they are structured today, with more rather than much less faith. You reap what you sow.

Wow, thank you so much everyone for the insightul replies. It has really given me a broader perspective as to why so many return missionaries leave the Church.

Please could you anyone tell me what is an AP and PA?

Thanks.

ramonglyde Wrote:
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> The mission is really the first time a young
> person gets to experience a somewhat uncensored
> church life. By that I mean they get to see the
> inner workings of the church without an authority
> figure (mom or dad) soothing out the rediculous
> and damaging actions of church leaders. I fear I
> am still failing to get my point across. Bluntly,
> what a person sees on the mission is that there is
> no inspiration, no discernment, nothing even
> Christ-like in so many ways.

Totally get what you mean here. I hated the "training" sessions where we were taught basic sales techniques. I hate sales because I such at it. When I went on a mission, the image I had in my head was that we were to teach by the spirit, not by the Zig Ziglar guerilla marketing handbook, goddamit.

> I have said it before and I will say it again, the
> mission was the end for me. Leaders with no more
> foresight than a box of rocks (pick your own
> metaphor), constant action with no results.

It was the beginning of the end for me. I witnessed and experienced favoritism, so-called unChrist-like behavior, pure evil from Assistants no less, jealousy and back stabbing when promotions weren't obtained, constant brown nosing, racism, and a host of other eye-opening policies and behavior.

Some elders were proud of the fact that they knew "deep doctrine" and talked about it any chance they could. Well, thanks to them, a lightbulb went off in my head and I slowly but surely backed away from the crazy.

It didn't help that a couple of years prior to serving time in the mission field, the Gordon Hinckley-Mark Hofmann affair unraveled, brought about by the murder of two people. My disbelief was already half-cocked by then, so to speak.