not 100% accurate because it wasn’t recorded but as close to the actual conversation as possible.

On a flight to the west coast from Salt Lake City a man and woman were seated together. They struck up a conversation about the hot weather and the lateness of their flight. It appeared that they were both traveling home to the west coast. The following conversation was overheard.

Man: What brought you to Salt Lake?
Woman: I came for the memorial service of a friend.
Man: I’m sorry for your loss. (Pause) Do you mind my asking what your friend’s religion was?
Woman: I’m not sure.
Man: I was just wondering if it had been an LDS service.
Woman: Oh, no. That wouldn’t have happened.
Man: So your friend was not Mormon?
Woman: Well, I guess she had been. She had been a Mormon missionary at one time.
Man: So she left the Mormon church.
Woman: Not exactly, she was a lesbian and so it was not possible for her to be a Mormon.
Man: Well, you know that the Mormon church is open and welcoming to gay people. We just ask that they live the standards of our religion.
Woman: Gay people can belong to your church just as long as they don’t have sexual relationships?
Man: That’s one of the standards of the religion and there are several others…….
Woman: So, you’re saying that gay people are not allowed to have loving, committed, intimate, relationships during their lifetimes?
Man: (pause) well yes, that’s what our church teaches. I’ve had some experience with gay people in my congregation. I’m a Mormon bishop and a young man that I’d known all his life struggled with the issue of being gay.
Woman: What happened to him?
Man: He left the church. We also had a woman in the ward who came to me to share that her son was gay. She told me not to make her choose between her son and her church. After a while she stopped coming and then she quit the church. I saw how they struggled and it’s really a difficult thing.
Woman: It sounds like it.
Man: We just have to trust in the inspiration of our church leaders.
Woman: I’m sorry but I don’t understand the “trusting in inspiration” part. How was it OK for your church to be inspired to keep black people out of the highest part of your church and then be inspired to change that? How is it inspired for Joseph Smith to marry 14 year olds or women who already had husbands and then be inspired to change that? Are you thinking that it is going to happen for gay people too?
Man: I’m not sure but that is the way things are now. These are really difficult things for us to figure out.
(There was a fair amount of turbulence for a while and so the conversation was interrupted)
Woman: I’d like to know something.
Man: OK
Woman: How is it possible that you don’t have a huge amount of confusion because what you are told to do and what you actually believe?
Man: Well, I believe that I have to have faith and that things will fall into place and make sense.
The conversation ended and a long period of time elapsed. Then, right before the plane landed…..
Man: By the way, I want thank you for our conversation. I can tell that we are coming from very different places but I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
Woman: Well, I probably wouldn’t have shared my thoughts if you hadn’t brought it up.
Man: I just want you to know that you’ve given me a lot to think about. I mean that sincerely … you’ve given me things to think about that are at the core of my beliefs.

Awesome!

It sounds like both parties were doing well. The Bishop was oblivious to the hurt the church caused those gay people who left, but was willing to think about stuff. The woman was logical and to the point.

Very cool conversation.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It sounds like both parties were doing well. The
> Bishop was oblivious to the hurt the church caused
> those gay people who left, but was willing to
> think about stuff. The woman was logical and to
> the point.
>
> Very cool conversation.

Can't say the bishop sounded oblivious to me. What happens when you're inside a bubble and you open an window?

I don't know. Maybe I am guessing on some of the details. It seems like he didn't know how much harm he and the church did to those gay men who just kept on resigning. I think he thought he was doing them a favor by being completely open and accepting of them despite basically telling them that they would never ever be able to engage in a loving relationship.

It seemed to me like he felt he was doing them a favor. :(

Sunlight is still the best disinfectant. Having to listen to his own beliefs out loud, and being heard by an impartial observer, made them sound ridiculous and damaging, even to the TBM.

it's funny how that happens!

See, this is what I was talking about in my other post the other day. Exmos and other people informed about Mormonism need to stand up for what they believe. So often, Mormons are so easily offended and so trained in bullying others, that people find it easier just to turn the other cheek and not deal with them. But it really is important to be brave, like the woman in the above story, and take a stand for what we believe is right. We are entitled to our opinions and our beliefs and while we wouldn't want to force them on anyone, we should be confident about sharing them when the opportunity arises.

Well done, anon airplane woman!!

+1,000!!

Totally agreed.

It does happen, but not nearly enough.

+1!

100%!

Very true!

If Bishop Seatmate had had his wits about him, or any wits at all, he would've turned it around on her. Hopefully he'll think twice the next time to he gets an urge to do missionary work on a plane.

I have found it imperative to withhold being confrontational with mormons, as once the 3 levels of preprogrammed responses are gone, you can sometimes just talk to them from a logical perspective, only then can you get a new idea or concept across. I travel a lot and a plane is the perfect place to do this as the logistics of the conversation does not allow for the passive aggressive tone that often accompanies these type of discussions.

The Bishop sounded like fairly sincere and open-minded for being a Mormon. Sounds like she got the wheels turning in his head.

Sounds like Bishop is on his way out and his doubts have just escalated!

Whoa. Don't get too excited. But, yes, I should hope that Anonymous Airplane Lady planted a seed or two.

I want to use this conversation in a chapter I'm writing. I'm wondering how I cite this. Does anybody kno?

What a great conversation!

To me, this is very odd:

Man: I’m sorry for your loss. (Pause) Do you mind my asking what your friend’s religion was?
Woman: I’m not sure.
Man: I was just wondering if it had been an LDS service.


So inappropriate and intrusive... "Hi. Nice to meet you. What was your dead friend's religion?"

But then again, I guess that whole conversation might not have happened if that man actually had decent manners.

Yes, that was the most notable part of the conversation for me too. All she did was state a bunch of really obvious problems with Mormonism that this guy unbelievably had not thought of, despite being a Mormon bishop and having two parishioners actually change religions over this issue. He sounded like a clueless oaf. I feel bad for this woman to be stuck next to him on a plane flight. How annoying.

That part wasn't surprising to me at all. In my mission, we were taught to interject religion into conversations like this, especially when talking about things like death. He saw an opening and he went for it, albeit a bit clumsily.

Given that the plane was coming from Salt Lake City, he had a pretty fair chance that the deceased was LDS, so the question was less out of line than it otherwise would have been.

Fabulous, this woman was brilliant.

Also, I agree with spaghetti oh, what an incredibly rude & intrusive thing to ask someone. Seriously?! Just another perfect example of how TBMS believe "sharing the gospel" entitles them to completely ignore the bounds of courtesy, good manners, good taste and personal privacy.

I hope really good things come out of that conversation!

That woman was very well informed about Mormonism.

The bishop espouses a view about homosexuals that he would never dream of imposing on heterosexuals -- "oh sorry, you can't marry, have sex, or have a family because even though God made you the way you are, somehow that displeases him."

"Man: I’m not sure but that is the way things are now. These are really difficult things for us to figure out."

It's not "difficult" to figure out. It's difficult to hold two opposing ideas in one's head and not have it explode. They've already figured it out but the difficulty lies in letting go of the wrong idea.

"Hi, do you have a moment to talk about how weird I am?"

Bwahahaha!!