Hi all,

I recently resigned my callings and sent a letter via Facebook to the local leadership explaining that I no longer believed. I should also mention that I live in Taiwan and was second counselor in my branch. Within 24 hours of sending out my messsage, I was contacted by the newly called Mission President in our area. Below is our e-mail exchange. The real gem in the whole back-and-forth is the last message from the Mission President to me. In that message, he makes some pretty un-Christian threats.

The E-mail Exchange:

Dear Brother chinaboy,

I am the new mission president in the Taichung Mission. Please give me a call at your earliest convenience. My cell # is +886 928-XXX-XXX. I would like to talk with you regarding your recent facebook post regarding the Church. Thank you.

Kürt Blickenstaff


President Blickenstaff,

Not to be a stickler about details, but I did not make a facebook post regarding the church. I was very careful to send private messages to the leadership of the XXX branch regarding my reasons for resigning my callings; I did not disclose those reasons in a public space.

I also sent a separate private message to a few close friends in the branch informing them that I had resigned my callings, but I did not disclose the reasons.

I don't want to be assuming, but I hope this conversation is not regarding any possible charges of apostasy. I am very busy. Could you please just outline what it is you you would like to know?

Thank you,

chinaboy


On Jul 26, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Kürt Blickenstaff wrote:

Perhaps the information that I have is incorrect. I was informed that you recently posted on your facebook page that you believe that the Church is man-made and attempts to conceal information from it's members. I was further informed that you included numerous examples of such information and stated that you personally don't believe that the Church is true. If that is incorrect, please forgive me. If it is true, please help me understand how that is not apostasy. Thank you.

Kürt Blickenstaff


President Blickenstaff,

You have incorrect information. I did not make such a post on my facebook page.

Just like I explained previously, I wrote a letter explaining that I personally don't believe in the LDS church anymore and stated my reasons why, and then sent that letter to the XXX Branch President and First Counselor as well as to the District President. In my letter to them, I did not attempt to persuade them to come around to my point of view. I simply explained why I didn't believe anymore.

At no point in time did I post such a letter in a public space.

I also sent a much abbreviated letter to some friends in the branch stating, in essence, that I no longer believe the church is true and that I was resigning my callings. I also mentioned in that letter that my wife is still a believing member and asked them to support her during this difficult time. At no point in this letter did I even state why I no longer believed, let alone attempt to persuade anyone that the church was not true.

It is my understanding that this does not constitute apostasy in the church-discipline-sense of the word. It is true that I no longer believe, but I am not advocating that other people believe the same as me, nor am I airing these views in a public space, such as on my facebook wall.

If simply not believing, and being honest about that with my leaders and friends, is considered worthy of church discipline, then why hasn't John Dehlin been excommunicated, or the Saints in Sweden who had networked and were discussing troubling church history openly?

In fact, I still like the church. I still plan on attending with my wife and helping her out with our three sons. I just won't have any callings.

Please let me know if you need anymore information. You are also welcome to contact the previous Taichung Mission President. He and I had many discussions about church history. In fact, he told me that I could hold callings even if I didn't believe. It had just gotten to the point where I felt that was too dishonest, and hence the letter to my leaders resigning my callings.

Respectfully,

chinaboy


Dear Brother chinaboy,

It appears that the information that I received was incorrect in one detail. Thank you for clarifying things for me.

I was given a copy of the letter that you sent to President Du. It sounds like you have spent more time studying anti-mormon literature than the Book of Mormon. If you consider the NYT to be a more sure source of truth and light than the Book of Mormon then you (and, sadly your family) are in deep trouble.

The arguments that you list are not knew. They are variations of arguments that have existed since Cain slew his brother. You can find a nice summation of apostate doctrines in Alma 30 and, as an added bonus, you can read what ultimately happens to an apostate in verses 59-60.

It seems to me that there is a fine line between between believing apostate literature and being an apostate. I am sad to see you try to walk that line. It is a line that we should try to stay far away from. I would love to meet with you and discuss this further if you desire. I have attached a favorite poem that I hope you will read and consider.

Faithfully your brother,

Kürt Blickenstaff

Wow. This guy is clearly not willing to show you any respect or even attempt to be friendly. I wouldn't give him the dignity of responding.

O M G !!

Dear Kürt Blickenstaff,

It sounds like you have spent more time studying a fictional book written by a conman than science, logic, or history. If you consider the Book of Mormon to be a more sure source of truth and light than DNA evidence, archeology, or just plain common sense then you (and, sadly your family) are really and truly brainwashed.

Your ability to rationalize away inconvenient truths is not impressive. It is a variations on tactics that were used by the followers of Jim Jones. You can find a nice summation of congnitive dissonance in Wikipedia and, as an added bonus, you can read about what happened to the followers of a religion that believed a UFO's landing was imminent (even though that landing never took place).

It seems to me that there is a fine line between indulging in a delusional belief and being delusional. I am sad to see you try to walk that line. It is a line that we should try to stay far away from. I would love to meet with you and discuss this further if you desire.

Faithfully your brother,

china boy

+1 nice.

I love this, and would be tempted to actually send this letter to him if our exchange had happened more recently. These e-mails between him and I are a little over a month old.

I love what you did there. Well done!

It could be one of those "teachable moments" Mormons love to talk about, but the Mission President has been called by the mighty Brethren and cannot be bothered to learn from those he considers lesser-than.

No need to respond to the MP as it would only involve an argument on his part. I see no reason to try to put lipstick on a pig.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2013 10:52PM by evergreen.

Alma 30:59-60

59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among the people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites and called themselves Zoramites, being led by a man whose name was Zoram—and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead.

60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell.

Wow! Subtle threat there... not!

https://www.facebook.com/kurt.blickenstaff

Let him know how you feel.

Please respond to him that it is very un-christlike to make death threats or to hope that somebody dies...oh wait no that is very christlike. Tell him he's a jerk!

It certainly reminds me of many Christians' reaction to atheists: "Well, we'll be laughing when you guys are burning in HELL!!"

Really? You'll be laughing at people being burnt alive? Wow... What a bunch of sickos!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 12:04AM by nickname.

Looks like Kurt married a girl from his mission? She really held to the rod, didn't she...

Did he? I'm not sure. She looks Asian, though. I haven't actually had a chance to meet him in person yet because once I resigned my callings I stopped going to leadership meetings he would be present at. All of this happened a few days after he took up post here.

Odd, I read Alma 30, and I saw no mention of JS being a con artist, and I was unaware that Cain slew his brother because of JS being a con artist.

I did notice that the chapter starts by bragging that the Nephites valued free speech and that they would not punish a nonbeliever, and ended with Corihor being cursed and later killed.

Everyone is so surprised to see the nasty side of Mormons. My husband, children, and I have experienced plenty (and enough!) of that. I know exactly what I would do.

I would send him back his e-mail, and ask him to read and concentrate on what he wrote. I would write out the Alma scripture, instead of just including the numbers.

It does no good to debate or argue or reason with Mormons. Oh, a Mormon might fool you into thinking that he is listening and understand you--but he is just gathering more information to use against you. No response is the best response.

(If you must say something, say, "right back at you.")

I agree with the sentiment -- the Mormon is just gathering more information to use against you. These people are so brainwashed they don't have a Christlike response available when it comes to disagreement.

Holy hell. He sounds like he works for North Korea and not a church. What a dick sending you that scripture in Alma! I can't believe the nerve of that asshole.

I don't normally rant on RFM but that dude really pissed me off!

You have got to be kidding me. You need to get this out there to more people. Unbelievable.

Have you shared this with your wife?

I did share it with my wife. She feels like he stated things a little strongly but felt like I provoked him with the tone of my e-mails. I shared it with my (normally) open-minded brother and he says that he found the MP's 'straight talk' refreshing.

Good old blame the victim approach. Nice.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my email. The folks at exmormon dot org are rolling with laughter.

ps. Apostasy is spelled r-e-p-e-n-t-a-n-c-e

+1

As an EBM (esoteric BM) with friends in your situation, can I simply offer your way of letting people know was polite, nice and thoughtful.

I'm the kind of person & wife who remain friends of people such as you and your wife, kids.

I say thank you for not raining on other people's journey, we both know the problems with LDS history etc.

That MP is a class A tool. May I ask if English is a second language for him?

Threats and consequences, really, not helpful, or charitable

You acted reasonably and logically. And then the MP quotes scripture that has a threat of violence.

What the hell is that guy thinking? I bet he wakes up tomorrow and feels the need to apologize to you.

This e-mail exchange is over a month old. If he felt the need to apologize he certainly didn't follow through on it; I never received a call or e-mail.

This scenario calls for a phrase I don't use very often because it is not lady-like.


What a dick.

Girl, 3, Killed Following Her Father Across Road
Ventura County
August 30, 2001|TIMOTHY HUGHES | TIMES STAFF WRITER
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A 3-year-old girl was struck by a car and killed after climbing out of her father's SUV and following him across a road near Moorpark as he was helping another daughter whose truck had run out of gas.

Courtney Blickenstaff was pronounced dead at Simi Valley Hospital shortly after the accident, which occurred about 8:30 p.m. Tuesday, California Highway Patrol Officer Derek Kawai said.

The girl's father, Kurt Blickenstaff, had parked on the northbound shoulder of Moorpark Road, about a quarter-mile south of Tierra Rejada Road near Moorpark, Kawai said. The man's 19-year-old daughter Kelly had run out of gas going southbound on Moorpark Road and had called for help.

Kurt Blickenstaff crossed Moorpark Road and left Courtney behind with her 7-year-old sister. Courtney, who was not in a child safety seat, got out of the vehicle and was struck as she crossed the road, Kawai said.

The driver of the car that struck the toddler, Grace Kelly, 61, of Camarillo, was not cited.

"This is a nightmare you don't want to wish on anyone," Kawai said. "You turn your back for a second and this can happen."

Courtney was the youngest of six children, five girls and a boy, friends said.

Kurt Blickenstaff is a general surgeon at Pleasant Valley Hospital in Camarillo and a prominent member of the Mormon Church in Ventura County. In 2000, he was named Doctor of the Year at the hospital and is a past bishop of the church, friends said.

Gary Miller, a family friend, said church members and relatives offered the family support throughout the day at their home.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/30/local/me-40027



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 05:37AM by Stumbling.

That's really sad. I had no idea. I can't imagine what that would be like.

If I were someone who engaged in armchair psychology, I might venture that he is such a true-believing dick because of the promise of being able to see his daughter again if he lives 'worthily' enough.

Still no excuse to be a dick. Lots of people have awful things happen in their lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 10:42AM by Bite Me.

The officially line...


Apostate
“Members of the Church vary in their levels of participation or belief. Latter-day Saints who have seriously contravened or ignored cardinal Church teachings (publicly or privately) are considered apostates, whether or not they have officially left the Church or affiliated with another religion” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism [1992], 1:59).
http://www.lds.org/topics/apostate?lang=eng

Dear President B, just so that I can avoid being considered an 'apostate' by you or others, can you list for me what are considered to be the 'cardinal Church teachings'? Please be specific.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2013 05:40AM by Stumbling.

Remind him that "apostate" literature includes:

The BoM
The BoA
D&C and Pearl of Great Price
various writings of various apologists
Journal of Discourses
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
B.H. Roberts' History of the Church
FAIR
FARMS

etc., etc.

I bet that it would be enlightening to Blickenstaff to know that few of us have ever used "apostate" literature, whatever the hell it is.

Mormons are their own worst enemies, their publications their own worst indictments.

I'm not a Mormon, never have been, but I know the "Evil" this Mormon Cult convey's on anyone that turns against them, I've been a victim of them myself.

The above is a good example of the Cult attempting to punish a member that's fallen out of line

It struck me that Kurt must be *scared*.

He's afraid, even scared shitless, and that's why he lashes out, kinda trying to kill the messenger.

The mission president's use of Alma 30:59-60 is an outstanding example of death threats on those who leave the church. Mormonism IS A CULT.

I've been watching the Church for over 30 years and its my firm belief that big changes are not far off.

The Truth is a Weapon and the internet is killing them

Has anybody here contacted Blickenstaff at:

https://www.facebook.com/kurt.blickenstaff

And if so, did you get a response?

Kurt is a gigantic dick. It makes me laugh when defenders trot out the "these issues aren't new" line. As if good arguments have an expiration date. The things that made Mormonism bogus haven't changed since 1830 so why would the critiques?


Here's a bit about Pres. Blickenstaff


http://www.ldschinese.com/2013/07/kurt-and-catherine-blickenstaff-family-arrive-in-taizhong/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRqxquktkvc

http://www.lds.org/church/news/first-presidency-calls-new-mission-presidents-gallery?lang=eng#blickenstaff

"gigantic dick"


Kind of like a Dickasaurus? Dickzilla?

I served in the Taichung mission under an even bigger jerk MP (amazing, I know). If I see him when I visit next month, I'll let him know how I feel.

I'm in a bit of a quandary reading the comments above. Some of you call Kurt Blickenstaff a "dick, a gigantic dick, a dickzilla, or a dickasaurus rex (I’ll add the rex)." I am familiar with the name calling, but I really think we can do better to really sum up the size of this matter.

Several years ago I was working in Santa Barbara. My employer and I were done for the day and he wanted to hang out for an hour or so at a gay-bar. I was a hardcore TBM and had a perfect track record regarding the Word of Wisdom dos and don’ts. My curiosity got the best of me, and thinking that no harm will come by peaking, this Morgbot crossed into the forbidden zone of Sodom and Gomorra for an hour that night.

I don’t know what my employer drank, but I ordered pineapple juice. While standing in a corner and somewhat terrified at the looks of a leather adorned crowd moving all about, my employer noticed a tall 6’5” super model-like, athletic-type, tank-top muscle dude walk in the bar. He pointed him out and said, “Watch. The regulars will ignore him. He’ll only approach the new guys.” I asked why. He said, “He’s a PTM.”

“What is that,” I inquired. He held up his pinky finger and said, “He’s a Princess Tiny Meat.” I thought for a moment and then understood. My employer said something to the effect, “You’d think with all that he’s got going for him in the natural looks department and his buff-bod that God would have at least given him more than that (at which point he held up his pinky finger again).

Well, I think President Blickenstaff could be labeled more appropriately as one who has just such a physical attribute, and an inferiority complex. Rather than rise to the occasion, President B uses his MP status to assert self-righteous condemnation – since no success can compensate for his failure in the PTM department.