This forum is currently read only. You can not log in or make any changes. This is a temporary situation.
Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:42PM

Must have been about 1952, on a lazy Sunday afternoon --
listening to Elder Somebodyoranother on KSL's radio
program, "The Spoken Word."

"And The Prophet tells us that the Sword of Laban shall
not be returned to its sheath until the restored gospel
has been taken to every nation, kindred, and yadda yadda."

I wondered what the Sword of Laban might be. One of my
aunts had a Book of Mormon, but as a kid I had not read
much of it. I recalled the character Laban, and that's
about all.

At nearly that same time the Deseret News Saturday edition
was running the Prince Valiant story strip in full color,
and each week I thrilled to the heroic knight and his
magical "singing sword," which I think was called Flamberge.
I imagined that the Mormons' wonderful sword of destiny
must be something like Val's invincible Flamberge.

Later I read the Arthurian cycle and figured out that Val's
sword was merely a lesser copy of King Arthur's fantastic
Excalibur -- the sword pulled from the stone. By then I
had read the Book of Mormon over several times and pretty
much had an idea of what Laban's sword might look like.

But why was the Mormon sword so important? Was it something
like the Hero Roland's Durendal -- the blade destined to
turn back the black Moorish banners in the Pyrenees? Or was
it something even more fearful and portentous?

I never quite understood how a stolen blade, used to
commit a murder was such a holy object to the Mormons.

Can somebody clue me in on this mystery -- and what must
occur in the latter days, before it can again be sheathed?

UD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: egomet ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:51PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: The Invisible Green Potato ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:58PM

Alright, get the image of a metal sword out of your head. Laban's sword was made out of obsidian, just like the only "swords" found on the American continent ;)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: beyondashadow ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:58PM

Founded by a runaway sex addict, the central theme of the Mormon Church is male genitalia and the obsessive and excessive exercise thereof.

The Mormon heaven is not much more than an eternal orgy of copulations without number with unlimited female receptacles.

Joseph Smith suffered from inability to tolerate denial of instant gratification. He used the imagery of the sword to seduce otherwise uninterested young ladies.

Sorry this ramble does not shed light on the Sword of Laban . . . yet another of Joseph Smith's absurd brain farts accepted by millions as God's Truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lostmypassword ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:58PM

It's right over there beside the Swiss Army Knife of the Missing Plastic Toothpick.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Bal the un (can't seem to get ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 11:37PM

I hate when I can't find the plastic toothpick

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: cheezus ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 03:59PM

JS must of thought that he was Lion-O from the Thundercats.

Who made this sword? What kind of legends can we affix to the maker of such a blade? Where did unworthy Laban get this thing? How could it survive the years under a rock where moisture would surely wreak havoc on even fine steel? Was JS threatened with that sword by an angel if JS did not boink the young maidens? Maybe that is the swords super power.

As far as the sheathing of it....it just a dude of yore waxing as poetic as he can. If such a blade exists, the GA's could thwart the whole second coming by losing the sheath, or destroying the magic sword all together. Maybe the brethren could do some DNA testing on any blood cells that are still on the blade. I don't really think it is a possibility because it does not exist as described.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:03PM

That's a great rhetorical question.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: closer2fine ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:05PM

I of course can't verify this, but when my sister was going to Snow College (1995) she, and her roomies, went to do baptisms at the Manti Temple. She says that a temple worker took their small group aside, and asked them if they wanted to see something very special. The worker showed them the supposed Labans Sword! Yes the very one that was buried with the golden plates!

I have grilled her about this experience since. But she was young and dumb when it happened, and didn't fully grasp what she was seeing. She says she cant remember what it looked like, just that the worker said it was buried with the gold plates.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:24PM

...
> she cant remember what it looked like, just that
> the worker said it was buried with the gold
> plates.

Must have been a pretty big stone box in Cumorah -- with
the golden plates, the sealed plates, the magic spectacles,
the Nephite breastplate, the sword and scabbard of Laban, the
liahona, the three pillars that held up this assortment, and the
wrapped package of Moroni's favorite peppermint cookies.

UD

ps Not sure about the cookies part -- the missionary lessons
were given in rather poor colloquial Southern Idahodian...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: closer2fine ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:31PM

Im guessing this means that the church does have a physical sword they are claiming is Labans sword.......but they can never let that info get out, because it would be toooooo easy to prove where and when it actually came from. They better keep that one under wraps forever.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:43PM

It's easy. The blade of the sword had rusted away. It was nothing more than a hilt:

"Joseph ascertained that the remaining articles were a gold hilt and chain, and a gold ball with two pointers. The hilt and chain had once been part of a sword of unusual size; but the blade had rusted away and become useless. Joseph then turned the rock back, took the article in the pillow-case, and returned to the wagon"

-Fayette Lapham, “Interview with the Father of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, Forty Years Ago. His Account of the Finding of the Sacred Plates,” Historical Magazine [second series] 7 (May 1870): 305-309.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: closer2fine ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:51PM

Hmmm :/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 06:54PM

closer2fine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmm :/


No wonder that they haven't put the magical sword back into
its ancient scabbard -- the invisible blade can only be seen
through the eyes of faith...

UD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: squeebee ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:26PM

Did they get it in the Skymall catalog?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 04:33PM

That stupid sword got more mention in the BoM than any named female character in the supposed thousand year plus story of 3 civilizations (Nephite, Lamanite, Jaredite). In fact, it may have been mentioned more times than all of the women put together, but I don't care enough about it to try and verify that.

Which tells you everything you need to know about the BoM author's attitude toward women. Whoever wrote that literary excrescence didn't give a damn about women.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 05:09PM

I wonder if there was some obsolete story that got lost about the Sword of Laban. It did seem to get a bit more emphasis than it earned in the Book of Mormon. They passed it down for a thousand years and put it in the cave with the other artifacts. It's just a sword. It wasn't like the Sword of Shannara.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 05:19PM

I remember hearing stories that the real sword of Laban was stored in the Granite Vaults. At the time, I thought it was BS, as I thought the sword was probably taken back into heaven, but now I am not so sure. Now I could totally imagine Joe Smith finding an old cavalry saber from the Revolutionary War in some Pawn shop, purchasing said sword, then telling true believers it was Laban's sword, especially if it had some foreign script engraved on it that he could not recognized, like in German or Polish or something. If such a "valuable relic" were to exist, one could imagine why more modern prophets and CEOs may wish to conceal it in the granite vaults.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 06:50PM

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...Now I could totally imagine Joe
> Smith finding an old cavalry saber from the
> Revolutionary War in some Pawn shop, purchasing
> said sword, then telling true believers it was
> Laban's sword...

Looks like you're right -- about the saber part:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QMDypBqXp7Q/Tyn3e0Mz43I/AAAAAAAACgE/5xuFfz-VJ9E/s1600/platesswords.jpg

Problem is -- that such swords presuppose mounted heavy
cavalry on saddled warhorses, and preferably with stirrups.
The ancient Greeks had a few single-edged blades that may
have occasionally been taken up by light cavalry, but not
2600 years ago in the Middle East.

Perhaps Laban was Lieutenant-General of the Fifth Flying
Jerusalem Dragoons?

UD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 07:21PM

. . . as well allowed to be physically seen in order to act as an instrument for growing God's One and Only True Mormon Church--and to keep Joseph Smith from getting killed.

In an article by Bill McKeever entitled, "Did the 11 Witnesses Actually See the Gold Plates?" an important reason is offered for the significance of both the existence, and viewing of the Sword of Laban (along with physical viewing the Urim and Thummim, the Liahona and the Book of Mormon gold plates):

"According to the `History of the Church' (Vol. 1, p. 52), [Joseph] Smith stated:

"'In the course of the work of translation, we ascertained that three special witnesses were to be provided by the Lord, to whom He would grant that they should see the plates from which this work (the Book of Mormon) should be translated; and that these witnesses should bear record of the same, as will be found recorded, [in the] Book of Mormon, p. 581 . . . .

"As a result, he obtained a revelation from the Lord that can be found in `The Doctrine and Covenants' 17.

"It reads:

"'1. Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea.

"'2. And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.

"'3. And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God;

"'4. And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work.

"'5. And ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.'"
_____


William Horne Dame, in his diary of 14 January 1855 says that he "[a]ttended [a] meeting [and heard] a discourse from W. W. Phelps. He related a story told him by Hyrum Smith which was as follows: Joseph, Hyrum, Cowdery and Whitmer went to the hill Cumorah. As they were walking up the hill, a door opened and they walked into a room about 16-feet square. In that room was an angel and a trunk. On that trunk lay a Book of Mormon and gold plates, Laban's sword [and] Aaron's brestplate."
_____


Wilford Woodruff records in his personal journal that the Sword of Laban, among other artifacts, were phyusically viewed by early Mormon Church leaders:

"President Young said in relation to Joseph Smith returning the Plates of the Book of Mormon that He did not return them to the box from wh[ence] he had received [them]. But he went [into] a cave in the Hill Cumorah with Oliver Cowdry and deposited those plates upon a table or shelf.

"In that room were deposited a large amount of gold plates containing sacred records and when they first visited that room, the sword of Laban was hanging upon the wall and when they last visited it the sword was drawn from the scabbard and [laid] upon a table and a Messenger who was the keeper of the room informed them that that sword would never be returned to its scabbard untill the Kingdom of God was established upon the Earth and until it reigned triumphant over every enemy."
_____


Author Grant Palmer, in his book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins," further fleshes out that account as follows;

“Hyrum Smith related more about [Oliver Cowdery's Hill Cumorah spelunking] to William W. Phelps, identifying still others who made the excursion to the hill's interior. Phelps recounted: 'Joseph, Hyrum, Cowdery and Whitmer[s] went to the Hill Cumorah. As they were walking up the hill, a door opened and they walked into a room about 16-feet square. In that room was an angel and a trunk. On the trunk lay a Book of Mormon and gold plates, Laban's sword, Aaron's breastplate.'” In this regard, Palmer adds that in another statement, Young mentioned that they saw “'a Messenger' who was the 'keeper of the room' and that they conversed with him.”

*****


Through all the blah-blah, keep in mind that one of the Mormon God's stated reasons for having the faithful physically see the Sword of Laban was to prevent Joseph Smith from being "destroyed."

Uh-huh. Lot of good that did.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2013 07:46PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 08:25PM

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>... you shall have a view of the plates and
> also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the
> Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother
> of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the
> Lord face to face, ...

Uh... I'm trying to picture all of this in my mind's
eye. The Brother of Jared gets all these sacred goodies
and carts them off across the sea to the Land of Promise;
then sends the Urim & Thummim back to Israel, so that
King Saul can consult that oracle during his battles.

The Brother of Jared also sends the sword back across
the sea, to what would become Jerusalem, so that Nephi
could commit murder with it.

Then Lehi gets hold of all these sacred goodies once
again, and brings them to America for a second time.

So now the sacred goodies are buried somewhere in
Gold Bible Hill in Manchester, I guess.

All that's missing from the story is a mystical time-loop
so that the junk can be sent back to Jared's brother,
for an endless exercise in holy recurrence.

UD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 09:05PM

Maybe Saul had a magic yarmulke that he pulled the items out of like Harry did with the sword of Gryffindor?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 03:29AM

The phrase, "which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face," was only in reference to the Urim and Thummim, and should not be applied to the sword, plates, breastplate, or Liahona.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 08:44AM

So he really did have a sword, he would pull out and show people? My theory is probably correct then. BTW, even though that is just an artist sketch, the sword in question in Uncle Dale's post appears to possibly be a Mameluke sword, which were popular imports for combat weapons in the late 18th and early 19th century. Marines still carry a version of one as their ceremonial blade. If Smith had found one in some old officers attic, it likely would have been covered with Arabic lettering, which in the minds of him and the other hicks, may appear to be some kind of magical script.

Then again, that is supposing the person who drew the picture was modeling it after a description or picture of the actual sword of Laban, and not just some random picture of a middle eastern sword he found.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jeffs52 ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 06:45PM

Jo Smith loves those magic swords.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jeffs52 ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 06:47PM

That wasn't intended to be gross. Didn't Hyrum have a knife on him with magic symbols engraved on it when he died?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 09:14AM

I think the mythical, magical Sword of Laban is supposed to be symbolic of Brother Joseph's pecker. Just like the sword wouldn't be sheathed until Christ comes again, apparently Joseph felt his pecker shouldn't be either and he certainly made a valiant attempt at keeping it that way.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 09:35PM

The dominant theme of the BoM is warfare. The sword of Laban, according to the BoM, was the template for all the swords made by the Nephites in the new world, so understandably would be held by believers as having special significance, power, and meaning.

The missing sword of Laban serves the same purpose as the Holy Grail. It is something "physical" that believers see as imbued with holy and magical properties; a manifestation of God's power. It is a mystery that can't be solved, but can inspired endless speculation and wonder, just like the existence of God.

The idea that it will return at some future point when Mormonism has spread throughout the globe, serves the same purpose as the second coming of Christ. It keeps believers eyes focused on future where their hopes and beliefs have all come true, their questions answered, their doubts vanquished, their enemies defeated.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: September 06, 2013 11:44PM

. . . "marvelous work and the magic" of it all. Once here, now gone, cue the organ, sing along. As Mormon apologist Brent L. Holbrook tried to spin it (when he was a Church seminary teacher in California):

"In the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ and His gospel to the earth, the sacred collection of items [i.e., the Sword of Laban, the gold plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the Liahona] appears as an additional witness to the calling of a prophet in the latter days.

"The Three Witnesses later testified that they saw all four of the items, even as the Lord had promised they would. It is thought that the sacred symbols Joseph possessed were eventually returned to the angel but there were many of the early Saints for whom the power of the symbols in connection with Joseph remained.

"All four items came forth in this dispensation as testimonies to the office and calling of Joseph Smith as 'a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet.'"

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smith-and-doctrinal-restoration/13-prophet-%E2%80%9C-days-yore%E2%80%9D


Onward, Mormon lemmings, marching off the cliff.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2013 12:26AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Uncle Dale ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 12:02AM

helemon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The dominant theme of the BoM is warfare. The
> sword of Laban, according to the BoM, was the
> template for all the swords made by the Nephites
> in the new world...

Odd, that the Mulekites did not bring over a few swords
of their own, from Jerusalem, to defend their Zarahemla.

But there's an even larger problem for the modern LDS
apologists who like to draw pictures of obsidian embedded
clubs for our edification. Unless the Sword of Laban
was just that sort of Aztec warclub, it was a poor template.

>"you will see Joseph Smith, Jr. walking through
>the streets of Palmyra, with the Gold Bible under
>his arm, and having a gold breast-plate on, and
>a gold sword hanging by his side."

This sort of revelatin' has a hint of "once and future
king" talk in it. I think it must somehow draw upon
European legends, rather than anything from the Hebrew
Bible.

I wouldn't quite equate it with the Grail -- but it has
more than a whiff of Ivanhoe and Roland, and perhaps a
medieval poet's concept of a vanquishing Moorish knight.

Odd, also, that in the Book of Revelation, the returned Risen
Christ has a sword at the Last Great Battle, but it is a
symbolic ethereal weapon that issues as a pronouncement
from his mouth. In Joe Smith's case, the sword is real
metal, ready for bloody use, ala Mohammed's armed forces.

Strange stuff.

UD

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Flyinghigh ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 08:18AM

The metaphorical sword of Laban is mercilessly unleashed, every time an adherent of the Mormon organisation steps out of line and courageously questions the dictats of the supreme leaders at the top of the Mormon empire.
This is especially so for any of the chosen ones at the top of the Mormon hierarchy, and recipients of the coveted 2nd Anointing and oaths of obedience. Their comfortable and luxurious lifestyles, rewards and family relationships would be in immediate danger.
Hence the extreme reluctance of most of the so indoctrinated to entertain any rational thought or question the organisation in any shape or form.
The resultant punishment from the 15 celestial despots in SL, would be merciless with the sword quite literally cutting the victim asunder from all member and family association.
Hats off therefore to Tom Phillips, Hans Mattsson and others who have shown great personal courage and conviction in refusing to be continually browbeaten into this Mormon enslavement and into accepting the unacceptable.
All empires fail eventually, no matter how powerful they may seem at the time. The current Mormon one is no different, and it, and all associated with its unrighteous dominion, will suffer the exact same fate as the rest.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: breedumyung ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 09:25AM

I actually bought the Sword Of Laban from a dealer in SLC several years ago.

My plan is to sell it to the GAs once the dust settles.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Bite Me ( )
Date: September 07, 2013 09:27AM

Did it come with the bonus special limited edition Mark Hoffman pipe bomb?

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.