It seems like Joseph Smith introduced most of the wacky stuff in his last few years during the Nauvoo era. You know, the stuff that is MIA in the "most correct book" which contains the "fullness of the gospel".

What do you think the church would be like if, say, JS lived for another 10 or 20 or more years? Personally I think he would have continued pulling ever escalating and bizarre-o stuff out of his backside and imposing it on the early saints.

If you think about it, the modern church is pretty lucky that JS died when he did. There is probably a wackiness threshold that JS bumped up against past which a church wouldn't be able to survive for 150+ years. I'm guessing a shelf made of carbon nanotubes would not be able to hold what he would have come up with next. :)

At the end, Smith had reached deep in the cult leader's bag of tricks:

He was taking everyone's money, he was taking other people's wives, he was having sex with children, he was making secret death pacts, he was declaring himself king of the world, he was delusional about his armies taking on the government, he was talking about moving the sect out of the country...

So I think, had he lived on, mormonism would have self-destructed and would have become a very small religion, like many of that era. Emma would have left or he would have replaced her. He would have eventually gone west and with continued contradictory and verbose revelations he would have probably started a war or a confrontation with mexico or the us to divert attention and reset himself as a leader of martyrs.

I do think that he wanted to die.

Like the Jim Jones and the David Koreshes, cult leaders find themselves trapped in the cult they create and their only way out of the unfulfilled revelations and impending declarations of inevitable doom is to create a way to die as a martyr.

After a cult leader has worn out their welcome with fear and promises, the people eventually begin to demand results. It happens with all cults, including Moses. But Smith had drained all the resources from these people, he had burned all the bridges and had painted these people into a corner, there was never going to be a zion, a 2nd coming, a rapture, a destruction of the government. He had drained the scam dry.

Smith and his father had longed to make money off the supernatural, finally they succeeded at a great cost to everyone. That, I think is why it took so long to replace him. Someone had to work up the brass to pretend to talk to God and claim Smith's unlimited power over these poor people. It took Young decades and countless lives in order to build up again a people that could be exploited. The church now days has automated this process. The leaders are automatically called, the finances are hidden, the doctrine whitewashed, the people are broken in as children and the money systematically drained from people.

I think that this is the reason modern leaders do not go anywhere close to making a statement about ANYTHING, because they learned the lesson from Joseph Smith.

He would have died of herpes, gonorrheae, chlamydia or who knows what else you could get from having sex with animals.

This guy was a Prime Time Pervert.

He had NO SHAME.

At all.

Not any.

Not even a smidge.

If you worship Joe Smith then you worship Lucifer.

No joke. If you worship Joe Smith then you might as well go eat those Almond Rocas out of the cat box because you are that stupid.

You can choose not to be stupid.

His narcissism was getting out of control, and sooner or later, he probably would have some something that even the truest of the true believers (most of them anyway) couldn't tolerate.

He was spiraling out of control into self-destruction. I only wish he had taken his whole @#$%^&* church with him.

I wish he had lived longer.

I agree that he was spiralling out of control and would have eventually self-destructed leaving Mormonism as nothing more than an odd note on the western US history page.

I don't think he wanted to die. I think he fully expected to weasel out of another difficult situation as he had so many times before.

If he had lived then people I love would not be enslaved and exploited by his legacy.

Joseph already wanted to head west and establish the church of the first born. Maybe one of our scholars could elaborate?

Correct

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-2?lang=eng

Maybe he'd have revealed what figures 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 are all about.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2013 04:00AM by reinventinggrace.

Maybe he would have actually consumated some of his marriages.

You know the young-ins got "blessed" by the Profet but I'm not sure about the elder wimmins.

Why would he "marry" a woman in her 50's.

No offense to any Gilfs out there but come on.

What was his angle?

I can't even make something up it is so bizarre.

Well, lets not forget that JS gave himself up (http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Can%27t_be_killed_within_5_years_of_August_1843) so we know that the temple would've been built. Plus that ever glorious city that which is above in heaven would've came back down to earth along with the mighty Enoch. Then we also would've have had the Great Gathering already.

But he would've been killed shortly after because he was claiming to be God (Holy Ghost) and kept adding women to his harem didn't help either. I think Enoch would've been martyred along with because he fulfilled the law as well (Polygamy practice).

But as far as new teachings go he did start to teach reincarnation and would've expounded on that. I think he would of also prophesied more (not that he needed to for he already had enough alleged false prophesies).

I don't think that one is too mysterious. There is more to polygamy than sex and babies, specifically prestige. It's pretty much inherent in homo sapiens, and most cultures, before modern times, regarded multiple wives as a sign of prestige. Muslims and mormon fundies still do. Both in the "look what a great guy I must be" sense and also that her standing in the community is now added to his, her wealth is now his and in the mormon scheme she is also 'saved for eternity' through him. Read the quotes about polygamy by JS and his followers and there can be no doubt that they were heavily into the prestige angle of it.

Finally, don't forget that women over 50 usually have pretty good experience when it comes to sex, they tend to know what they are doing, and it being without any risks of making babies probably makes it even better for a sex-addict like JS so I wouldn't rule out sex in the first place either.

JS and BY both married older women who owned land or had money.

1. JS would have been acquitted because the mos won the next election, after getting a delay in his trial(s).
2. Very soon thereafter some disillusioned mormon would have done what someone did to Strang and TSCC would have fallen apart.
3. BY engineered the removal from Nauvoo because he knew that the church would not survive otherwise.

It would have been Joseph Smith who dragged the Saints towards Utah, because he did talk about heading for the Rocky Mountains. The Re-Organized Church wouldn't have existed. And yes, things would have gotten even stranger.

I don't think it would have survived as well as it did. I think the church needed Brigham Young to really get entrenched, even if JS had brought it to the Rockies.

I think a major reason he kept coming up with wilder stuff is that he was already losing control of the sheep. When the rebellions would florish, he'd have to invent something to frighten them back into submission.

A quick look at Warren Jeffs right now is illuminating. He's going nuts, literally, trying to maintain control.

If Smith hadn't gone down at Carthage, one suspects that Brigham Young or someone else would have attempted to take over. Smith was going to lose control of most followers eventually. These were mostly not people who were born into the church and grew up brainwashed. They were all converts.

In any case, any surviving church would be unrecognizable.

I think he would have been found guilty of destruction of property and possibly treason. I think the church would then have split into many different factions.

Joseph's "Martyrdom" was a rallying cry for the members and BY stepped in, took them West and the rest is history.

I don't believe the church would have survived another 20 years if JS hadn't been killed. Many of those closest to JS had abandoned him...they either didn't believe he was a prophet at all or they believed that he had fallen. Most of the early members had no idea what was going on. As that became common knowledge, I believe nearly everyone would have left him. He might have been left in some isolated town with a small number of followers, but the church wouldn't have grown to be much of anything.

My guess)

1) He would have spent several years in prison for his easily-confirmed illegal acts. The Danites would have wussed-out of trying to rescue him.

2) The succession crisis wouldn't have happened. Both Hyrum and Samuel would have lived, leading to a dynastic system controlled by the Smith line. Brigham Young and John Taylor would have never been prophets.

3) Lyman Wight's mission would have stood out the most, resulting in a move of church headquarters to Central Texas.

4) The mormons would have played a significant role in Texas' war for independence, which would have ultimately gained them the respect of the state (after a rough start). The Alamo would not have played out the way it did.

5) Doctrinally the mainstream church would have grown to to resemble the RLDS of today (or Community of Christ). IMeaning, it would be much more respectable than it is today, though quite a bit smaller.

Brigham Young would have had him poisoned within a year or two.

We know what would have happened.

Take a look at one Warren Jeffs.

Note to Self:

Do NOT eat or drink anything when reading diablo's posts!!! I can't stop laughing (and spewing Coke Zero).

in the Realm of All Possibilities, Porter Rockwell might have told a court the truth about Joey....

I'm NOT saying Likely, just possible.

My wife believes Brigham was instrumental in the death of Joseph Smith. Actually, there was an article in the paper this weekend stating where Smith gave the relief society great power and authority only to have Young reverse it and try to erase it from history. I believe the article was in either USA Today or the WSJ. I'll try to find it.

"My wife believes Brigham was instrumental in the death of Joseph Smith."

The conspirators in the Smiths' murders are well-known, and Brigham Young wasn't one of them. Have your wife study this:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/carthage/carthageaccount.html

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/carthage/defendantsbios.html

I cant name the source but when i read it ..it seemed legit...but joey was tiring of his clever ruse and spiritual wifery with its constant intrigue...im sure it became odious to constantly be sticking his thumb in the dike of moism...he was thinking of moving on to new pastures...perhaps the increasing craziness of actions speech the last couple years might indicate mental pressure to keep the scam going...king of the world...wearing his little napolean costume everywhere complete with sword...yeah joey might have been losing the battle with narcissism

Provo would have a place called "Joseph Smith University."
The mascot of the Cougar would still be appropriate, given Joe's marrying of 50+ women.
They wouldn't, however, be any less controlling, racist, homophobic, or better at sports.

The trial of Joseph Smith would be the trial of the 19th century. He would have been convicted at very least of the newspaper incident but even more likely of bigamy and quite possibly hung for treason. The proof of the above would have led to the disbanding of the church.